The Traveling Breech Plug
 

I feel obliged to post that the plug was returned by frontier gander/MountainDevil54 a few days ago. It looks just like these pictures he posted earlier.
























The threads are just as ugly as the pictures show, however the plug threads with no issue what so ever, into my rifle. If one looks closely at the pictures, one can detect a more silvery appearance at the ends of the threads. This exists, because i had did my best to remove roughness with a wire brush. After working these edges with a file and a wire brush, it was tested in my rifle, and when it threaded smoothly, it was mailed.

Frontier gander/MountainDevil54 wrote of 2 issues with this plug, one was the threads not working in his rifle, and the other was the depth of the primer pocket. He wrote that the primer pocket was made too deep. He wrote he was having issues with blow back, and this was because the pocket is/was too deep. This, of course, is false, but i believe it is my fault he thought so. You see, i never informed him that this plug is 0.011" longer than an OEM plug. Without a caliper, he couldn't have known this, and thus, when he experienced blow by issues, he thought it was because the primer pocket was too deep.

We never communicated, so i don't really know what happened in Colorado, but i am guessing he tried to use W209 primer, and they were too long. Had i known he was having issues, i would have recommended he try CCI, or STS primers. One of these may have worked perfectly in his rifle with a slight crush, and resulted in a tight seal, with zero blow by.

In hindsight, it seems to me, i may have tried to accomplish too much with this plug. The plug sent, was designed to be 100% reliable with BH209, and it was also designed to reduce blow by. Had i communicated this, i feel he would be happy with this plug. Perhaps not. At any rate, before i received this plug back, i sent him another, that has a near identical head space as an OEM plug. Using this replacement plug, should be just like using the OEM plug, except, there will be better ignition whilst using BH209. Believe me, i also filed, and polished the threads, so they would be much prettier, than the pictured threads of the first plug sent him.

I might have to see if you can make one for a T/C Black Diamond rifle. That breech plug with the nipple that screws into the plug is sure a PITA.

That work to me looks first rate. But then I know nothing about working with metal. I guess I will wait and see how FG likes the new plug.

ronlaughlin-it,s just one of those(no good deeds go unpunished)moments......karl

ronlaughlin

Those threads look horrible all around that plug. I notice flat spots in the middle of the threads. Is that from the cheap soft metal, or being dropped or something?

i used the W209 primers and didnt get the crush fit. It had enough slack between the BP/frame that the sides of the primers were sooted up pretty good, basically pitch black on the sides and would often get stuck. I only fired it 12 times and knew something just wasnt right. Thats why i mailed it back to you for your inspection.

The plugs are made from grade 8 bolts. They are not soft. The flat spots, i believe, is how the bolt was made. The dings and such, i believe, are from the bolts bouncing against each other in the box, whilst the box is bouncing around in the UPS truck. No doubt some of the marks on the threads are made by the collet holding the bolt whilst it is being drilled, and milled.

Every plug mailed, is tested, and worked, until it threads smmooothly in either my rifle, or in a nut.

WoW Look dont take this wrong,But I would not even Screw that into my gun.Them threads look all jacked up imagine what that does to the threads inside your ML barrel ?

Had i known you were having issues, i would have suggested you try one of them CCI you wrote about using. They are just enough shorter, you may have seen wonderful results.

Too bad we didn't communicate. Too late now.

As long as they thread smoothly into your barrel they aren't going to hurt a thing. All they need to do is hold the breech plug snug so the end forms a seal. Those magnified images can make things look a lot worse.

My Brother is a machinist i can get dirt bike parts made or any metal part i need for free.Also any type metal i need,But he works at a big company that has millions of dollars in equipment.I can get a breechplug made for you just send me your old one and tell me ? mods you want done to it. Stainless steel or anything!

ronlaughlin

Would running that plug through a 'thread chaser' clean up the looks of it any. I know when I was back-yard mechanic'ning.. the thread chaser was a valuable tool.

Thats the deal, due to the threads being rounded up front, the plug required my socket to get it through some areas and then it would loosen up. Thats why i sent it back for his inspection.

When i received the plug the other day, the first thing i did was thread it into a nut, and it threaded about as smooth as a bolt could. The appearance is a way worse than reality, and i was quite shocked to feel how smmoooth it threaded. Then i 'chased' the threads with my made in USA chase, and it did do some fixing, but not as much as the picture indicated it would. It is better now than it was then, but i don't think one could see it in a picture.

Every plug mailed henceforth will be chased with the MURRAY CHASE, which isn't very inexpensive, but perhaps it will save me from similar grief in the future.

i can guarantee you, when i wrapped that plug with a single player of white teflon tape, it catches and snugs up. I just inspected the threads in my accura to make sure there was no damage and luckily there wasnt. i used a QRBP and it went in as smooth as butter.

Do I need a different breech plug to shoot BH209 in my Genesis?

ronlaughlin

I wondered if the thread chaser might help... just like any other tool that is made it is possible that the tool that cut FG's threads in his barrel was getting on the worn side and his threads may be a bit tight and shallow as compared to the one cut on the bolt.

With all the fitting I have donew with BP and breeches trying to get the right tickness of teflon tape - I can assure that that not all breech plugs, even being the same brand, are cut equally nor are the treads in the breech... just my personal experiance.

Exactly when the tool is new it cuts deeper threads as it gets used its more shallower.

So that is a complete new plug you made? It's not a modified version right? I thought you were modifying the plugs, not making new one's. The reason i said cheap metal, was because the CVA plugs are.

Ron,

I Think you are doing great work and would not hesitate to use any of those plugs. As you know, I make my Smokeless plugs from Grade 8 bolts. Your work seems to be impeccable to my eyes.

Ken

Thanks Ken!

Yea nice job there Ron...

Yes, this plug was not a modified CVA plug. It was made from a grade 8 bolt to fit CVA rifles, and what it does, is mimic the TC plug that works perfectly with BH209. An added benefit, when one makes a plug, is one can adjust the headspace to get a 'crush' on whatever primer one chooses to use. My rifle has zero blow by using the STS primer, because that is what i desired. If i choose, i can mill it to work 'perfectly' with a W209.

I failed to 'explain' any of this to the CVA fella. He doesn't have a caliper, and thus had no way to understand why he was having issues with the plug. I should have been more instructive.

The problem was #1 the rolled threads and #2 Winchester W209 primers swelling in the pocket and blow by.

Thanks for the info. I really did have a mis-conception of what you were doing. Making a new plug, with better materials is a great idea. I think all people should go this route instead of drilling out factory plugs. Obviously just my opinion.

Had you tried the CCI primer, you may have experienced a 'perfect' fit. If that didn't work, using the STS, might have been the answer. From what you wrote, and write, the W209 was too long for that plug, and your rifle. Alas, any opportunity to find an answer has passed us by.

No i said the W209 did not give a crush fit, the pocket was drilled to deep. I did some experimenting with unscrewing my firing pin bushing and that would have done it but the amount of bushing that was sticking out was just to much.

I understand what you wrote. I agree you didn't have a 'crush' fit. What i am surmising is you were experiencing a 'smushed' fit. Had you tried a CCI, you may have seen a 'crush' fit. I can only surmise at this time, but i believe the reason you found the W209 to stick and leak, is because they were 'smushed' i.e. they were too long for your rifle, and that plug combined. Alas, we will never know.

One thing i know for sure, is the primer pocket was not drilled too deep. That was the second thing i checked when the plug arrived here. The plug was/is 0.012" longer than an OEM plug. Had the primer pocket been drilled too deep, you wouldn't have been able to get your fingernail under the rim of the spent primer to remove it.

I was remiss in not warning you of the possibility that the plug might be too long for your rifle. For that, i am at fault.

There was no crush fit PERIOD, i backed out my firing pin bushing a good deal in order to get it to tighten up any.

Just to show you what i mean i used my V2 as an example

Firing pin bushing screwed in tight,


Bushing unscrewed One full turn.


Depending how tight you want the primer, you adjust this little by little until you find the right spot that you like. On this one i gave it a Crush fit. In order to close the rifle and **** it, it must be slapped firmly shut or else you get this, This is just closing it quietly.


Slam it firmly shut and you get this,


On my Accura and the custom plug, in order for me to get a tight primer fit, that bushing had to be unscrewed so much that the bushing was wobbly.

Maybe your gun's frame has been stretched? I sure don't like the angle between the barrel and the breech plug in that third picture.

my original plug worked fine. It'd be impossible for that area to stretch

ronlaughlin

When you say 'crush fit' are you saying when you close the rifle you should feel the crush of the primer nose on the primer shelf in the BP.... or you should feel the primer walls crush fit against the walls of you primer pocket?

The W209 is the longest primer out there but it is one of the skinniest... The CCI is shorter than the W209 but it is bigger in diameter - fatter

So which 'crush fit' might you be suggesting. When we were designing the new Lehigh BP - we started with the thought of fitting the primer to the primer walls of the BP. That di not work well becase it limited you to one primer. We eventually ended up creating a primer shelf that the nose of the primer went up again to create the primer seal. When you put a W209 primer in a Lehigh BP you will actually crush the nose a few thousands again the the primer shelf in the primer pocket.

Not exactly. I am saying this is indeed how the 'crush' happens, but i don't necessarily feel it.

The caliper tell's me what the 'crush' is. For example, the table you posted the other day had the STS primer being 0.294" long. When i close my Accura with it's current breech plug, i cannot really feel any 'crush'. However, when i open the breech, and then remove the unfired STS, it will measure 0.291". This is the 'crush' that makes for zero blow by, a shiny clean spent primer, and clean scope bottoms. Myself, i cannot feel this 'crush' when i put the Accura into battery, however, i can feel it when i put my Omega into battery.

What was happening to the CVA guy, is, he was 'smushing' the W209 primer. They were sticking, and leaking, because they were deformed by being 'smushed'. In that instance, they were forced tight to the side wall of the primer pocket, not just the shelf. Of course this is only conjecture on my part; i wasn't consulted nor was i there, but it is the only logical explanation i can come to. When i received the plug, and measured it, and examined the primer pocket, my inspection verified what i already was certain of; the primer pocket was not too deep.

I beleive this to be the best method - pushing the nose of the primer against the shelf... I asked for my clarification

[/quote]What was happening to the CVA guy, is, he was 'smushing' the W209 primer. They were sticking, and leaking, because they were deformed by being 'smushed'. In that instance, they were forced tight to the side wall of the primer pocket, not just the shelf. [/quote]

I can picture that as we had the same problem when we set the shelf for a Fed 209a... when we then used a W209 we crushed it to the point of deforming it and squeezing it against the prime pocket wall + I think it dod leak.

Thanks for the information and clarification....

mike

I recieved one of Ron's plugs to try in my Kodiak, last week or so. A work of art IMO. I'm a pipefitter, so pretty threads don't do anything for me. The plug threaded as good or better than the OEM. The plug in the photos, threads, are not gonna hurt the threads in the ML. If so, I'd be more worried about the barrel material. I got my calipers out and found Ron's to be 0.011" longer, not a big deal. The Federal 209A primers I've been using fit perfect. + I can always use a STS or CCI. Plenty choices, again IMO. A Win 209 was too long, so there's no way the pocket is too deep. Too shallow for the W209, but not all the other choices recommended by Western(BH209). You wanna talk about blowback! the OE plug is terrible, crud on my scope, my face. Anything will be better.
Now I'm not an expert by any stretch, and when it comes to 209 stuff, I'm a borderline newbie, and appreciate all I am learning here, and commend Ron for trying to help us shoot better. But for $13.00 and a 3 day turnaround, best bang (pun intended) for the buck I've ever had, even if it doesn't work out. Will try it Sunday (going north Mi. ML season) and report. Thanks again Ron L.

Shoot straight my friend.