Round Balls - XTP's - Deep Curls
 

I buried this deep in one of the other threads but I thought I would bring a copy out front where it might get more observations.

I bring this out because - i have just gone through much of this same experiance inthe last year and a half. I gave up what I considered the best bullet in the workd to move to a newly developed bullet, that I actually think holds more promise. I am old, it is very hard to move an old person try something he has been using all his life and EXPERIMEMT with something new.

Well any way... I think this will expain a little bit

I think the real difference in the two bullets (XTP - Gold Dot/Deep Curl), because really they are basically designed to do the same function, is age.

At one time Round Balls were considered to be the advancement of the age, in fact I would believe that are still some folks out there that truley believe that. I have not done the math to figure out how old Round Balls are, but from the round balls of lead we do have a popular saying "make a big hole"

XTP's are certainly an advancement over round balls, although again some folks would still disagree. XTP's still do the job as demonstrated by several people and the know reputation that XTP's have harvested more animals in the US than and other bullet, and they continue to do so today as there remains more people entrrenched in shooting them than any other bullet. My question or observation is that they might be the Round Ball of our time. I think one gentleman said he had been using them for 31 years (I may have misread that). So I would consider the XTP 'old technology'. Now old certainly does not mean 'bad' no more than the Round Ball being old is 'bad'.

New materials, new technologies, new ideals, new methods - always create problems amoung the old establishment, especially when the old has worked so well for you in the past. And as compared to what you might have used in the past the XTP, price wise and availabilty was certainly the better of other choices.

I consider the the old named Gold Dot and now the named changed Deep Curl to be an advancement in the method of making a more humane and tougher bullet. I do not know who invented 'electroplating' or why they did inventent it. But for me, 'electroplating' and then mastering a way to do economocally electroplate copper to lead (creating a bonded bullet) has been a huge advancement in the durability of a bullet. It partially took away the need for the Nosler Partiton, designed to keep the lead in the copper. Next when Speer computed a way to control expansion, not as effectivley as a Nosler or a Barnes, but far better than the normal lead copper bullet it set the Gold Dot/Deep Curl ahead of most copper lead bullets of the time.

It proved so effective for Speer, and I give a lot of credit for this to the handgun hunting folks and us, the muzzleloading community, that Speer developed a whole line of Gold Dot/Deep Curl bullets both for centerfire and handguns (the Fedreral Government and the court systems promted the name change from Gold Dot to Deep Curl).

From what i have found testing, shooting, and a limited amount of harvest with the Deep Curl, the more modern technolgy, is by far the better bullet to humanely harvest animals with. I am not the only person to come to this conclusion. We still remain the minority as it is extremly hard to move people when they are entrenched - I was one of them I know.

I am a Ford person, I will always be a Ford person - Dodges and Chev's and their little sisters GMC's are not as good. See what i mean and i mean what I say.

I write this reall hoping not to start another war, but as an explanation...

I don't know enough about any of the bullets to make an informed opinion. I do know that I am looking for the bullet that knocks them down the fastest. If that is a newer bullet than whatever it is I am using, I will switch. I think the problem is, proving a new bullet is better.

For example, I use the Nosler Partition in my 30-06 and it has knocked down almost every deer I have put it into. The handful that ran haven't gotten out of sight. It would be hard for me to switch bullets with performance like that. But if someone can show me that another bullet will stop even more of them from running, then I would switch.

I don't have that same experience with blackpowder yet. The doe I shot several years back almost ran just out of sight but it was a pass through with good blood trail. The 4 ptr I shot last year got away with very little blood trail that quit after 100 yards. Apparently I didn't get a pass through. I was using a pack of Knight hollowpoint bullets. I switched to Hornady SST this year but haven't gotten to see how they perform on deer yet. If the Deep Curls are better, I would switch for sure.

ADV

I am not sure it is about switching, and I certainly would never switch from a Nosler to a Deep Curl, but it is more about at least trying some, first on targets for fit and accuracy and see if they are even worthy of trying on an animal.

I made this same decision from Nosler to Lehigh - it was not easy.

You are 100% correct.

Hey Sabot

Good thread. Technology can be a good thing...and tinkering is not a bad thing, and can certainly be fun. For me personally, once I find "the" load that works for me on paper and in the field (m/l or rifle) I close the book. I guess I'm old school, mabye I'm entrenched, or maybe I'm just lazy. Whatever it is...I don't see how it could get much better than what I have right now. I am not naive enough to think I have the holy grail though, I'm sure there are some awesome products out today. I have had 100% success with what I use today, so I personally have a real hard time justifying a switch.

I honestly don't know a thing about all this new stuff....I use a 16yr old mk-85 with #11's, pyrodex, and knight 260gr jacketed bullets. I've killed 12 deer and one fox with my gun in the last 16yrs. Everything I've ever shot at. Never lost one, and rarely do they run far. Several have dropped on the spot, and most have very good blood trails if they have run. My buck this year went 40yds shot through the heart, good blood. My gun on paper will shoot as good or better than most centerfire rifles with these bullets and 100gr of pyrodex.



I'm curious as to the new bullets out today, and may try some at some point. My life is just so busy the past few years (kids in high level sports) that I have subscribed to the "if it ain't broke - don't fix it" philosphy.

I look forward to learning more about what is out today, and what most folks have had alot of success with. :)

I basically made the hard switch from powerbelts "Although i do shoot a ton of the range still!" to Thors. Less drop, equal accuracy to powerbelts, maybe a touch tighter in certain rifles of mine, outstanding performance on game. Hell any bullet that goes through 1/4" of metal without deforming is going to be an amazing bullet on heavy bone.

What you need sabotloader is ballistic gel to test these bullets in. That is where you get some excellent information as to penetration, expansion, wound channel, etc.

The problem with a company coming out with a new bullet is people are set in their ways. I know I sure am. Say to me that a round ball does not kill deer and you get my dander up. To those that believe that I think they are taking shots the roundball was not intended to make. Which brings us to the point of new bullet design. If something works or worked for them, they are hard pressed to say... well I will hunt with this instead.

I wish I was in Falcon's situation. He can hunt hogs all year long, and the meat does not go to waste, but he could also be the worlds greatest bullet tester. He could test bullets to see about accuracy, wound channels, knock down power, etc. And at the same time have fun hunting hogs. And getting rid of the critters from what I read. That is one reason when he makes a post, I am always hounding him about how the bullet did on the hog. Because I have heard, hogs are tough to kill. So that means the bullet has to work.

I was once told that the government used to test bullets on sheep. Whether this is true or not, I will not say. But again, live fire tests beat all the speculation by leaps and bounds.

I had terrible experiences with Speer bullets when I first shot them. I was shooting a Speer.44 caliber GDHP 270 grain (I still have some). And they were real accurate out to about 75 yards. After that I could not make them group for some reason. That's why when Semisane was telling me about the 300 grain Deep Curl I had such a hard time talking myself into trying them. I have excellent luck with a .44 caliber .430 300 grain Hornady XTP. They are accurate, and seem to hold together well. Also a lot of people hunt with them. So are the Speer better then the Hornady?

Accuracy wise they are equal so far. I have not done media tests with the Speer so I better not say one holds up better then the other. And to this day, I have not shot an critter with a sabot. I always seem to be holding a roundball or conical shooting rifle when I hunt. As Saboloader said... old habits are hard to break.

WV Hunter

Exactly my point... I am one that normally adhears to that very point - strongly. Even though i have made the switch from a great bullet (the best at one time) Nosler partitions to the Lehigh's - my supply of Noslers is on the shelf and ready if I can get the Lehigh to fail.

But had I staunchly stuck to the theory I would have never tried.. in fact if I stuck to the theory - i would not have a computer - a cell phone - four wheelers & all the other things that I have that have been an improvement on what I thought was just Jem-Dandy in the past...

Think about it.... but think rationally... where would be be if we did not follow a path of possible improvement, whether it be small or huge. The best car I thought ever had was 57 Mercury with a 312 today I would be hard pressed to say that it might be as good as anything, and yes it worked and worked well when i let it go I really did not have to - I just saw improvement.

But, on one of your other point - some time is certainly necessary.

And there is nothing wrong with an MK - I just got one awesome gun and yes I did move back in time.

Here is the media.







Here is the .430 300g XTP which was found in the bottom of the third jug. It's pieces weighed a total of 250g.












Now, here is the 300g Deep Curl, which weighs 262g, and penetrated through 4 jugs.

Corey posted this over on my forum about how to make your own ballistic jell. IMO it looks very promising!
http://frontiermuzzleloadin.powergui...-gel-t1420.htm

MD there is no doubt in my mind as to what the thor/remade barnes bullet is capable of.i hunt with the TEZ, extremely accurate and wicked controlled expansion.as i have said if i lived where shorter range shots were the norm. deep curls would be the only bullet i would shoot.i practice with the deep curls.but for a lead bullet "price VS cost", the deep curls/ gold dots in my mind are at the top of the list.i have been watching sabotloaders testing of the lehigh bullets closely as i am very interested in there overall performance, which appears to be outstanding!

ronlaughlin

Thank you posting these pictures. I have followed along with your media tests and thought you had tested the Gold Dot/Deep Curl.

These really show what I am trying to say with the electroplating process that bounds the lead to the coper.

They make these bullets just down the hill from here in Lewiston, Idaho. In the old days I use to go to the Speer plant (ATK/CCI) down there a lot to watch the process an to observe some of their static testing. Plus at that time you could buy 'seconds' from them that were really good for target practice and plinking.

But even in those early days - i always felt that Seirra made the better bullet - but the Speer plant sure was handy.

Yea that test proves that the GoldDot/DeepCurl is WAY better bullet people needs to know this stuff please keep posting more about this.

Excuse my typo in last post.. it's price VS performance lol not price VS cost!

LOL never even noticed that. We all have our blond moments

bullets



did someone say bullets





my wife calls this my little house of killin

kb1,

That's awsome! I just showed it to my wife and her response "Why?" :happy0157: ML shooters are a different breed...

Sabotloader, what is the BC on the .250 and the 300 deepcurl if you know... thanks

I know you are on an anti-XTP kick now, but the fact is, if you would have made that same shot (high, through the ribs) with the Deep Curl you still wouldn't have had any/much blood.

This is what people have been trying to tell you if you'd open your mind a bit.

The Deep Curl is a good bullet no doubt. But in my experience with the deer I've shot with them, the performace was exactly the same as w/XTPs.

TNHagies

I am not defending anybody or anything but fact is I am not sure of that. I know I have made that shot with a 260 grain Nolser and Last week with a 200 grain Lehigh and believe me there was not lack of blood in either case.

This shot was high, breaking 4 ribs - but there was no absence of blood. it was all over the place.



This shot was high in the chest and out behind the right leg - with a Nosler... No lack of blood here either. This deer made it about 20 ft.



I do think the bullet can made a difference...

i had a high lung shot at 140 yards on an elk with a simple 230gr round ball and she still bled great.

I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm just speaking from my experience. I've shot two deer with Deep Curls (.452 300g) this year, both were higher shots than I intended (about middle ways up). One ran about 40 yards, the other about 50 or so. Neither bled much (just sprinkles about the size of #4 shot) between the shot and where they piled up. I'm not going to blame that on the bullet, I believe if I would have made a better shot, I would have got a better blood trail.

I still have 2 doe tags left and will fill those the week after Christmas with the same Deep Curls. Hopefully I'll make better shots on those ;)

EDIT: I think one reason people vary so much on their opinions of bullets derives from the fact that rarely do two deer act the same after being shot.

TNHagies

Amen!

My next wild hog will be shot using the Barnes 225 grain .429 bullet and my old CVA StagHorn.

This year a young friend shot a 7 by 7 bull elk using one of the Harvester 280 grain .430 hard cast bullets that i gave him. That bullet did exit but did not expand. That flat nose bullet did something to tear the elks lungs to shreds.

Way back when i killed a lot of whitetail deer using military ball ammo: i never noticed any difference in effectiveness when compared with Winchester Silvertips or Remington Core Lokt bullets.

Heck TN. I consider any shot through the mid body that doesn't ruin anything more than a few ribs with the deer going no more than 50 yards a very successful shot.

I kno what bullet I would want to shoot between the two. Deep Curl is away better bullet.Just from what I can see from this test..

I sure can FMJ wont open up and really dont Shock the animal,also they really dont leave alot of a blood trail.I have shot deer with AK-47s and alot of different kind of calibers. Now the winchester Silvertip the orginal one not the failsafe nosler bullet but the cheap silvertip they are junk n Frag Up my buddy shot a Bear 480lb.Dressed black bear with them at 20 yards in the front shoulder and didnt do nothing to it but make it mad with a 30.06 180g silvertip that was in the evening.The next day no blood trail we followed the tracks in the leaves left from the weight of the bear,jumped it up he shot it 3 more times.Still didnt die I handed him my 300 remington ultra mag and 1 shot from it,it was over.Oh this was in Pa some of my friends hold County records for bears in Pa not State records,but County..

Plus military ammo is made for shooting armor not flesh well most is.I done alkind of testing with military ammo,but cant get into to that..

Whats up Z ?

Not much hey I'll hit you up later D

[IMG] Code LOL Got to copy that and then paste it.

well it was working! i saw the picture. You broke it

Sabotloader
I just read this post. Now from what you told me you think a Bullet should drop each and every Deer in it's Tracks, yet the Doe you shot with the Deep Curl went 20yds, that's not in it's tracks. Now Im Not tyring to start anything and I take everything you say as (more experience) as you've been in the Game longer than I.
Again, you know I love the XTP's, I've been using them for almost 20 years and have never lost a single Deer with them. Most have gone between 0-40 yds befor expireing some made it longer. All the Deer were either double lung shot or heart shot, yea some high or low in the lungs too. Some bled a-lot, other's did'nt. But the XTP Alway's did it's job, so Im satisfied.
Each and every Deer shot in the same place with the same bullet never did the same thing after deing shot. Some ran, some fell, some bead a-lot and other's did'nt. I believe more than anything it's the Deer itself that determines how it's going to act after the shot. Some are spooked, some are tougher than other's and some just plain have a will to survive and get the heck out of there even though there dead on there feet. Also FAT in a Deer can plug the wound channel and cause no blood. There's so many things that can happen as the bullet enters and exits a Deer to have a the exact same senerio each and every time. If in fack the Deep Curls Droped each and every deer in there tracks then I'd switch in a Heart Beat to them, Im sure everyone would. But Im still not hooked on the fact that a Deer has to drop in it's Tracks after being shot or the Bullet did'nt do it's job.
Like I said in a post befor, I've only seen mabey a dozen Deer in 20 years drop on the sopt after being shot, the rest all ran some distance, it was'nt far but they ran.
I WILL give the Deep Curls a try and post the results next Season. What Bullet and Sabot Exactly do I need to get for My ACCURA?
With a 100% Success rate with the XTP's over a 20 year period I think that's enough testing for me to be convinced they do what there suppos-to. But I am willing to try something new if you recommend it. Also your a FORD Guy like me, My F150's and My Newer Mustang are by far the Greatest Vehicles on the road.
(BP)

My Accura uses the short black Harvester sabot, and the 300g Deep Curl with good success.

Every deer i have hit with the XTP, has ended up in our freezer.

Breechplug

Re-read what I wrote... everytime I pull the trigger I expect the animal to drop DRT... but as I explained I am terrilbly upset if any of them make it more than 30 yards and that is being generous, but I thought it would cover my behind....

If I lead you to believe that all a DRT - I certainly did not want to that way. What I will stand behing is that when I shoot a Gold Dot/Deep Curl - there never is a thought in my mind that it might come apart of fail in a mechanical way. I can not make that assumption with a XTP - actually most any Hornady. They are produced the old fashioned way by putting lead in a copper shell, the copper is not bonded to the lead. If everyone would shoot them at pistol velocities, sort like slowing a power belt down to keep it together, it probably would never fail.

Both Ron and I have shown you pictures of the XTP coming apart. I will be the first to tell you it is rare when they do, but i have no way of predicting when they will.

Here is another Hornady that comes apart and it is even designed for greater velocity...



ONLY if you want to - i would never say you had to change or that you really need to change that is your own personal decision.

I will continue to suggest to that technology has improved that bullets availble to hunters. These bullets I feel are more humane and offer a lot of ather advantages to the hunter. I personally know change is hard especially when you consider the old addage - if it aint broke why fix it? - But you might never know if it is broke if you do not try something new.

Example - why do you shoot your Accura? Did not your older CVA's serve you well? Dis one of those fail you so you moved to the Accura or did you see achance to improve and move in that direction.

Shoot, I can not promise you or anybody else that you will be happy with a Gold Dot/Deep Curl but I really believe that they are a better hunting bullet, as much as I believe some bullets are better for hunting than others, just as I believe the XTP is far better than a round ball or a Power Belt over a much wider range of operation.

Ron suggested the 300 grain, I would suggest the 250 for whitetail to 175 yards, but if your ranges are greater than that then go with the 300. The 250 has a very deep hollow point in it and will open at 10 yards as easily as it does at 175.

Lee has used it on hogs - shot it through the plates and it has come out on the the other side.

You are experianced - i would suggest you try some on paper and see if they will work there. Then if you can find some saturated soil @ 75/100 yard shoot one in there and dig it up (i use those dang water bars in Forest Service roads - that way I can say the water bars are good for something) Just remember it has to wet like thick blood and/or organs to make the bullet show its best.

Absolutely true - but if you can create a big enough shock to the animal - it will over ride those responses. That is where the bullet makes a difference... The guys that shoot those big heavy conicals can testify to that.

Think I will stop this has gotten to long already....

My .50 Knight Elite used all lead Buffalo SSB 285 gr bullets, probably pushed way too fast, for a few years until my supply ran too low. I would say the majority of deer dropped in their tacks. Many shots were 140 out to a big Illinois buck at about 175 who also fell in his tracks. The deer shot at closer range, that I can remember, seemed to run 20 to 50 yards and many times I noticed the bullet would enter behind the shoulder but exit close to a foot to the rear on shots that werent very quartering at all. I think I was driving them too fast. I switched to some sst"s and lost the dependability I had. Some very erratic performance, and I didnt even finish the season with them. I'm trying the 250gr deep curl this year. Most of my hunting has been with the bow, 2 bucks and 2 does so far, and only one with the mz. Had my grandson with me, 1st time on a gun hunt for him, and he was following the blood trail better than I was. Must be the younger eyes. She ran about 80 yards, hit tight behind the shoulder, quartering in a little, hit one lung for sure and destroyed the liver. Still have 3 tags. I'm a little concerned how tight they load. I'm using the long black mmp's. Can't use the crush ribs in black? as they are too easy and wont hold pressure with bh209. Need to find a compromise sabot for next season. Grandson cracked me up when he called me Ducky from ncis while I was describing the damage inside the deer.

I started with the Silvertips and can attest that they are junk. I shot several deer where the bullet didn't exit. They did do some damage at times, but other times they didn't exit. Lost my best deer thanks to a Silvertip. I use Nosler Partitions in my 30-06 now and nearly all of the deer where the shot is placed properly drop in their tracks. When hit in a less than ideal spot, most still drop but a few run. The ones that do run don't go out of sight. The partitions in a 30-06 is an awesome combination in my book.

Never shot a bear with them though, but I have little doubt they would do the job.

grizzly 2

Just you know and you probably already know... there are two long black MMP's - the HPH-12 and the HPH-24. Do you know whick one you are using? The HPH-24 is the thinner and it is right between the 'Crush Rib' and the tighter HPH-12. I use the 24's in my newer Knights.

ADVWannabee

This is exactly my feelings... the bullet can make a difference

I absolutely believe it does and I am in search of a BP bullet that will have the same effect. I have only shot two deer with a BP rifle, one was a pass through and the deer ran about 50 yards. The other one I lost and had little blood so I can only assume it wasn't a pass through. I definitely want a bullet that will stay together and carry its mass through the deer. A bullet like that can give you the edge on less than ideal hits.

After seeing your post on the Hornady bullets, which I am now using, I will be looking into something else for next season. I have yet to get a shot this season to see how they do, but still have a few weeks left.