xtp or deep curl/ mmp or harvester
 

which combination would be the best performing and most economical to shoot all year long

IMO...

The XTP is definitetly less expensive - 3/4 bucks less money most often per box. The Deep Curls are the better hunting bullet, they are the newest in development and probably the best normally priced hunting bullet of the time.

I prefer MMP but others really like Harvester. MMP seem to conform to the bore for me better than the Harvesters. The polymere plastic is more pliable in the MMP.

But most often it might come down to what your bore prefers with the bullet you choose to shoot. + you have to dertirmine which thickness of sabot you need to fit your bore.

400gr+ lead conical and 60-80grs of whichever powder shoots the best for you is the cheapest and hits like a freight train. :D

But thats not quite what you were asking so.....

I can get the GoldDots and XTPs pretty close to the same price locally....at least for now. Depends on which ones mostly. The GoldDot/DeepCurl is a better bullet and just as accurate except for maybe in a Savage.

MMP and Harvester sabots are close enough in cost that it all depends on what your gun prefers. I use mostly MMP/Hornady sabots but not always.

You may get a better answer if you mentioned for which gun.

Not much of a difference really. Both MMP and Harvester are about the same price. Same with the XTP and Deep Curl. I've killed deer with both and so far haven't seen a difference in performance.

I'd let your gun tell you which is best.

Some XTPs are a real money saver, especially if you buy the 100ct boxes. But for the most part, XTPs and GDHP/Deep Curls are pretty close in price, a couple of bucks difference. For a bonded bullet, I think it's worth it to get the Deep Curls.

Re the sabots, I have for the most part only used Harvesters. I have found that the sabot probably makes the most differernce in accuracy. For the 300gr .452 bullets, the long blacks give me the best groups, but are a true b!tch to load in my Omega X7. For the 250gr .452s, the short blacks seem to work the best. For the 240gr .429s, the green crushed ribs do the trick. I think Sabotloader is right in that there is no real way to avoid trying all the different sabots out there to find out what your ML works best with.

Around here the price is close, I believe the Gold Dot or Deep Curl to be a much better bullet. Used the XTP for many years and quite often the bullet came apart and did not quite exit I believe the exit hole on the low side when hunting out of a tree stand to be important. When I switched to Gold Dots I found that I did get an exit hole but that a well placed bullet usually drop them on the spot .
On sabots; I try all the thickness that will work in both brands, for some reason [I believe the length may enter into it, also the compressibility] one will always group tighter and more dependable than all the others. I have found that with my lapped bores the Harvester shoots best about 60% of the time other than that it usually runs about 50/50. There for trying them all is a good policy. It may possibly have to do with barrel whip.

i have three rifles a cva kodiack , knight krb 7 , and a tc impact, have not shot the tc yet but i shoot the cva and knight all the time cva has a has a average bore not real tight not loose , but the knight has a loose bore cant shoot any thing that is package as easy load i have also notice that the hollow point handgun bullets are more forgiveing with a difference in velocity wether up or down than most of the poly tipped bullets as far as exspansion and acurracy

Ask or look up Sabotloaders torture test on both bullets..once you do that and consider the price is about the same. deep curls/gold dots are the way to go.

where are you buying your deepcurls most places i found they are back ordered no places local even carry or want to

I think the real difference in the two bullet, because really they are basically designed to do the same function, is age.

At one time Round Balls were considered to be the advancement of the age, in fact I would believe that are still some folks out there that truley believe that. I have not done the math to figure out how old Round Balls are, but from the round balls of lead we do have a popular saying "make a big hole"

XTP's are certainly an advancement over round balls, although again some folks would still disagree. XTP's still do the job as demonstrated by several people and the know reputation that XTP's have harvested more animals in the US than and other bullet, and they continue to do so today as there remains more people entrrenched in shooting them than any other bullet. My question or observation is that they might be the Round Ball of our time. I think one gentleman said he had been using them for 31 years (I may have misread that). So I would consider the XTP 'old technology'. Now old certainly does not mean 'bad' no more than the Round Ball being old is 'bad'.

New materials, new technologies, new ideals, new methods - always create problems amoung the old establishment, especially when the old has worked so well for you in the past. And as compared to what you might have used in the past the XTP, price wise and availabilty was certainly the better of other choices.

I consider the the old named Gold Dot and now the named changed Deep Curl to be an advancement in the method of making a more humane and tougher bullet. I do not know who invented 'electroplating' or why they did inventent. But for me, 'electroplating' and then mastering a way to do economocally electroplate copper to lead has been a huge advancement in the durability of a bullet. I partially took away the need for the Nosler Partiton, designed to keep the lead in the copper. Next when Speer computed a way to control expansion, not as effectivley as a Nosler or a Barnes, but far better than the normal lead copper bullet it set the Gold Dot/Deep Curl ahead of most copper lead bullets of the time.

It proved so effective for Speer, and I give a lot of credit for this to the handgun hunting folks and us, the muzzleloading community, that Speer developed a whole line of Gold Dot/Deep Curl bullets both for centerfire and handguns (the Fedreral Government and the court systems promted the name change from Gold Dot to Deep Curl).

From what i have found testing, shooting, and a limited amount of harvest with the Deep Curl, the more modern technolgy, is by far the better bullet to humanely harvest animals with. I am not the only person to come to this conclusion. We still remain the minority as it is extremly hard to move people when they are entrenched - I was one of them I know.

I am a Ford person, I will always be a Ford person - Dodges and Chev's and their little sisters GMC's are not as good. See what i mean and i mean what I say.

I write this hoping not to start another war, but as an explanation...

mack166

They are back ordered because Speer had to change the whole marketing program for the bullet. Changing the name and the packaging from Gold Dot to Deep Curl. They have not been able to catch up. Plus they have some huge contracts acoss the world theyare trying to fill. The Govenrments always get theirs first. It is getting better.

Part of the reason was the succes of the bullet and the development of the entire line including centerfire bullets, but the other part were court rulings that said you might be liable in court to the victum(s) if you use a bullet for 'Personal Protection" that was labeled as a hunting bullet. Personal Protection bullets must have a completely different design.

Here are some 250g, and here are the 300g.

Here is some 300g that i picked up on the frozen ground behind my target this morning.

Here are some 300 grain Deep Curls recovered from the damp sandy loam behind my 100 yard target. Muzzle velocity was around 1700 f.p.s.



And here's a 210 grain .410 out of my .45 Renegade using H14540RB sabots at around 1900 f.p.s.

ronlaughlin

Ron correct me if i am wrong, but the bullet shown in Ron's picture were shot at targets and not at a surface or object that would caused them to go through normal expansion. It appears most of them were beat up from richochet.

Cause if you look at Ron's pictures and then Semi's you can see the the difference.

I think the difference is the bullets were striking different soils - frozen hard ground vs. damp soft ground.

Also, the hill side behind the target is a slope, not perpendicular to the bullet travel.

Some time a go, i fired the 300g .430 XTP, and the 300 deep curl into the follow juice jug set. The bullets were shot at the jugs from about 60'. The load was 105g of BH209.








The pieces of the XTP were found in the bottom of the 3rd jug. The Deep Curl penetrated through 4 jugs.







The sum of the pieces of XTP weighs 250g.


















The Deep Curl now weighs 262g.

Huh? Link?

Nato

this is what i wrote earlier...

I can give you the link any more it is long gone from my list. The courts have made the decisions on this. As people shooting people with hunting bullets were causing collateral damage to other people and property. They have ruled you are responsible for that damage if you are not using store bought shells that are labeld 'for personal protection' They can not be reloads.

Should be able to look it up on the net.

Holy crap. So I have a load (I should say, "loads of a load"...I have 1000 of them) from Georgia Arms that is a +P load with the Speer Gold Dot bullet (40S&W). I believe it is 1300 FPS...I'll have to check. Anyway, since these are not packaged as "personal protection" or whatever, I could be liable in some way for using them if needed? Or if I roll my own (I am getting reloading stuff for Christmas) self defense rounds, same thing?

Now, is this only in the case of collateral damage, i.e. a 3rd party gets hurt or their property gets damaged? So, if the same happens using a "pre-packaged personal protection load", I am not liable? What if I use my own load on an assailant and he dies? I am liable for his death because my own load was "more lethal" and a prepackaged PP load probably would not have (ha, ha) killed him?

What the frunk???

Sorry, I did not mean to hijack the thread. But I already typed all that and I ain't deleting it.

Nato

That is why the name was changed... Speer has contracts all over the world to supply Law Enforcement with Gold Dot Pistol bullets. Rather than change that name they came up with the new name....

As i read the information and discussed it with a salesman at a sproting goods store - yes you could be liable if you a non-approved bullet for 'personal protection' further you can not use reloads as you may not reload them to the desired PP standard.

You can use them for personal protection in the woods vs. other animals - if that helps....

I am not totally sure of all the in and outs of the court rulings. But one individual ended up getting award a tidy sum of money because he was shot as a home intruder with a hunting bullet from a 45 acp that was hand loaded with a XTP.

You might and should do some leg work to verify what is good and what is not.

Others out there will certainly know more about this than I...