Too Bad
 

This used to be a good site.But lately it's been going all down hill.I haven't been a member here for too long so the change has happened in a relatively short time.I'm sure I won't be mised,but if this continues I will be forced to leave.And I haven't even had anyone attack me...yet.It's a shame because I don't want to leave.There are a great deal of knowledgeable people here when it comes to muzzleloaders.If we could let people give their opinions and advice and let the receivers of that information sort it out from one persons to the next things would be much nicer here.If you don't like Powerbelts and use another bullet why not just state that,and maybe the reason why,and stop bashing people for their preferences.And that goes for any other product that advice or sugestions are made for.Just give your opinion or advice and then the person asking the question will have more information to make his or her decision with.Then there is the down right ugly attacks on people.Everyone knows what I am talking about.Even if it has only been one,it's too many.Thank you everyone for reading this and hopefully you will all give this thought serious consideration.

Well said,friend.We all have our own faults,but,it seems that some folks are still the playground bullies they were when they were kids.

I also agree, but then there is Freedom of Speach, we all have the right to say what we want and we should still be thankful for that. Weather what someone say's is right or wrong we just have to take it in and move on. Agreed there should be no bashing of anyone or any product, give your opinion and the reader can absorbe it and decide on his or her own if it is what they should or should not use.
We all have different taste and likes, but we do have one thing in common and thats's why were here, we Love MLer's. I use to take it to heart that I shoot CVA's and everyone thinks there a Cheap Piece of Crap but now it does'nt bother me in the least, they work for me. But the Bashing of a Person should be kept to themselves or at least in a PM.
There's a Bunch of Great Guy's on this Forum and no matter what Forum you go to you'll find pretty much the same Bashing. I dont think you'll find a better MLer Forum, it'll be sad to see anyone go.
(BP)

I too would like to see an end to personal attacks and bashing but not to the point that we lose constructive criticism.
For example, if someone promotes an unsafe practice I would like to see someone post some criticism and a better way of doing things.
If someone promotes pushing a bullet at a speed beyond what it was designed for I definitely think it is fair to point that out. We don't want someone new to the sport having a bad experience by not being able to recover a wounded deer or having the meat full of bits and pieces of an exploding projectile.
We all have different opinions and different ways of doing things. It would be pretty boring if we didn't. Just keep it civil and constructive.

Ive stayed out of the fray for the most part but...

Some of us are not in the pocket of the company making a product and put an ethical kill above getting free stuff. When someone has a website plastered with a companies products, its obvious this effects the reviews.

This goes for Toby B. and Randy W. as well. They have great sites but its plain to see who is paying the bills and who they support.

I do use ONE PB product as a back up just because i got them at a fair price and they load super easy in the field. Its also the heaviest available and i dont push it hard.

Light PBs are grenades and ive seen enough evidence first hand to prove it. There are far too many Premium priced products that destroy a PB in terminal performance.

Which would you rather carry in Bear or Lion populated areas while deer or elk hunting...A PB or a Partition or Barnes or Lehigh?

I would think just about anything in the Premium priced range besides a PB.

CVA is the marketing King atm and they do make some good products which i have never bashed. Their new pricing though is in the same league as T/C products so why not give a Made in USA a try if it fits you.

In the entry level pricing i think the 2010 Wolf is just fine and i actually like the way it fit me better than an Impact. The Impact locks up nicer IMO but thats not the major selling point for me.

Im not bashing CVA but im not going to take reviews as the Gospel truth from a website that looks like a tribute page to them.

Flame suit on. :D

Well said,my feelings exactly!

The biggest reason I post my opinion on the Powerbelts, and hope others do too is because if we all just ignore it and don't say we don't like Powerbelts, it will only be positive stuff on here about them. So to some guy just starting out that comes here to get a recommendation it's going to look like Powerbelts are the best way to go when that's clearly not the case. Even the guy that loves to tell us how great Powerbelts are even admits he has to modify them to get them to perform well.

I just don't want someone to come on here and read that crap and then use this bullet and either wound deer and not find them, or completely give up on muzzle loading due to poor performance. If he reads both sides stories about the Powerbelts and still chooses to use them, that's his choice, but he should be able to read both sides and not just one.

Actually if you guys are truly interested in testing and getting free stuff from such and such company, its pretty darn easy. All it takes is an email with your name and some history behind why you would like to test the product out and review it. The best thing to do is keep it simple and ask for a few items, but make sure the items are something you can actually test out and write a review on, once you work more and more with that product and they see it, asking for some more stuff to review is very easy. Just remember that if you work with guns, they may want them back within a certain time period.

I only used the modded powerbelt on 1 deer, the rest have been factory with either 90gr RS or magnum loads.

There are plenty of stories of ' I swear i had it on his shoulder!' tales and lost deer. Someone just made a post not to long ago about a quality bullet that failed to leave a blood trail.

I don't know how you put up with it MD 54.Your posts are informative,interesting and honest.Yet everytime you make a post someone has something negative to respond to it with.I use Powerbelts because I don't like sabots but I haven't been fortunate enough to hit a deer with one yet.Oops,I did knick one last october.I hit a mature doe last sunday with a 12 guage Winchester Sabot slug at about 80 yards.She went right down,laid there for a moment,then got up and ran away.The blood trail consisted of one drop of blood every 6 to 12 feet or so for about 75 yards then it disapeard and I lost the doe.Now,should I stop using these slugs due to a lack of blood trail even though I've used them for about 20 years and taken many deer with them?I don't think so.A well placed shot makes all the difference in the world.I don't recomend patched round balls but I don't bash them every time someone brings them up.The first deer I ever killed was with one in a .50 cal.,had it not been a double lung shot,and the deer had run away,I probably would have never found it due to ZERO blood trail.Luckily it only went 30 yards and fell with only a drop of blood on the entrace wound side and the ball lodged under the skin on the opposite side.And so what if you promote products that are given to you free of charge.In my opinion they are terrific products,all the ones I have used are anyway.Keep up the good work and keep testing.I'm looking forward to the tests on the new Powerbelts.And thanks for all your help,pluckit.
P.S. I've never had a deer hit properly through both lungs go far after being hit with anything I hit it with,blood trail or not,when the air runs out,the deer goes down.

Oh ive been here since i was around 20ish or so. In the 6-7 years ive been here i put up with it so its nothing new. Thats how i got my forum started, it was a place for the powerbelt shooters to hang out without all the trash talk and a place to get help with the powerbelts. Grown a lot in the 2 years its been up.

You just have to go with the flow and dont let it get you down. I took heat for shooting blackhorn209 in a hawken so its basically no matter what i do or shoot, they still trash you LOL.

quality very few stories..PB's literally thousands lol..your not being honest again!

Maybe they're just jealous about the free samples you get,if indeed you do get them, and they're not getting any?

Pluckit
I want you to know that if I make a comment about pushing a powerbelt bullet too hard I am not trying to pick on Jon or anyone else. If you were to look back at Jon's posts you would see that he himself has stated countless times that the 245 grain powerbelt should not be pushed hard. In fact he has said 70 to 80 grains of powder is best with that bullet. Now when he comes on here and tells a newcomer to shoot that bullet with a magnum load that bothered me. I cannot understand his motivation for making a suggestion like that. I have seen in person what that bullet does if overpowered and I think you saw it yourself with that deer you shot at 20 yards and didn't recover. For you to suggest it is somehow wrong to give a newcomer to the sport accurate information is hard for me to understand.

That's what I think it is, jealousy, plain and simple. Breechplug and Builder don't get items to test out and they are just so envious of MD that they have to start something. They use Freedom of Speech to cover their butts while in reality they are just crybabies. I personally sold my Omega and bought an Accura because I believe it is a better gun for my money. Omega was nice but my Accura sure outshoots it any day. I don't use Powerbelts cause I don't like them but I know many guys who use them with great success.
So Breechplug and Builder why don't you both grow up and stop bashing other members of this forum. Contribute with respect or get the h-ll out of here, we don't need your type on here.

the new comer was asking for Accurate loads for his rifle. I gave him a couple.

If you are shooting close distance shots, you dont use a magnum load, you take it one step at a time for the new guys so you do not confuse them. When people want to know if their load is ok, they normally PM me for that info.

Magnum loads with Powerbelts are recommended only if you are shooting out beyond 140 yards. I personally have used them on game around that range with perfect results. It depends on the area i hunt.

But like i said, the new guy asked for accurate loads, i gave it to him. Let him get the load info first and settle down with it and i bet you he will come back asking more questions until he is comfortable enough to go out and shoot. One step at a time, dont flood the person with a ton of stuff all at once.

"Maybe they're just jealous about the free samples you get,if indeed you do get them, and they're not getting any?"

Quite a few here that ride my arse get a good deal of free stuff them self. The only difference is, i dont get paid.

I can guarentee you 100% that is not the case. People are-and have been for years frustrated with people, in this particular case MD who says things that are misleading. I nor anywone else could care less if MD is getting paid 200K a year to push CVA. I just don't want him telling people-especially newcomers to MLing that it's ok to use 150g charge with a light Powerbelt and everything will be fine.

It's the responsibility of ALL OF US on this board to make sure that when people come here to ask for suggestions and opinions that they get the full picture. That means, if something is said that is less than truthful, it's the responsibility of others to point that out. That is all that's happening here.

I believe you read my post so you saw the statement on round balls.Why is it nobody downs a round ball but always bashes a Powerbelt?I appreciate all the load information on powerbelts but I do not take it as gospel.I shoot the 245 grain Aero Tip Powerbelt with 2-50 grain pyrodex pellets with good accuracy.The deer you refered to was shot at in poor light conditions and was only grazed.Had it been a double lunger at that range I believe that deer would not have made it 50 yards.

Again, Poster asked for Accurate Loads for his Wolf. You guys seem to keep over looking that.
http://frontiermuzzleloadin.powergui...r-them-t21.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MountainDevil54 (Post 3732416)

If you are shooting close distance shots, you dont use a magnum load, you take it one step at a time for the new guys so you do not confuse them…

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So if you agree that Powerbelts do not work well at all ranges, why not suggest a bullet that does? Like a Barnes, Nosler, Lehigh or Gold Dot ect...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MountainDevil54 (Post 3732416)

One step at a time, dont flood the person with a ton of stuff all at once.

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You say you don't want to overwhelm him with information but now you're telling him he can only use your suggestion if it's long range. If it's short range, then he has to use something else. How is that not making it more confusing for him? A suggestion of a bullet that works from 10 to 150 yards would be a lot more helpful.

Do you see what people are saying MD? You're bringing this on yourself.

one step at a time is right, you guys on the other hand are just trashing 100%. When it comes to powerbelts, just let those who shoots them help the person in need. I doubt there are many on here who have shot as many as i have. I know t he bullets like the back of my girl friends head.

As usual when a topic goes this way, i typically PM the original poster to let him know that if he has any questions or needs help, to just pm me and i'll do what i can to help. So i guess its that time LOL

These are the exact reasons why i say what i do to MD..jealousy has nothing to do with this. it's all about the newcomers and getting them started in the right direction.this is not about MD and feeding his misguided ego.. it's apparent he could care less about anything except the products he spends so much time endorsing. and yes he is bringing this upon himself.

Kind of like the fly that keeps buzzing you until you take a swat at it.

I really didn't want to jump into this one Pluckit. But you posed a fair question which deserves an answer.

As an experienced round ball shooter, here's how I see it. Most guys shooting patched balls are using something around 75/85 grains of powder in .50's or 85/95 grains in 54's, and generally limit their shots to 100 yards. Most would also agree that a non-hollow point Power Belt with similar powder charges will be about as effective as a ball.

I've never shot a Power Belt in my life, but have read numerous reports by experienced shooters that indicate (1) Power Belts are often incredibly accurate, and (2) there's a good chance of bullet failure in deer when they are driven hard.

The problem arises when a new shooter matches his new "three pellet/magnum" gun with a light weight Power Belt, shoots great groups at the range, and then goes hunting. He may or may not get good results. But the likelyhood of bad results seem to be higher than with most other bullets (even patched balls). I suspect that's because ball shooters are shooting lighter loads, or are more experienced in placing their shots, or pick their shots more carefully, or some combination of those factors.

Very good points Semi. Also the experienced shooters know that "magnum" loads are not really necessary at any range.

:happy0157:

Ive been shooting CVA since i was 14 and started using powerbelts in 2002 when i lost 2 deer due to tc maxiballs failing to do the job.

What do you shoot? I got to know so i can say that you are endorsing them :poke:

On the other hand, No body say anything about what powder, primers, guns, bullets or what kind of toilet paper you use!

Post that PM please! i am betting it will say something like.. don't listen to those other people who are trying to talk you into another product as far as the downside to PB's i have come up with a insert that helps this bullet perform like a deep curl? am i on the right track here MD? again MD your arguments hold no water and you cry that your being singled out and picked on.instead of replying to the questions that were presented to you..that's the easy way out..that's the way dishonest individuals react when confronted..

Uh oh!
 

My turn!That's incredible,I've shot at least a dozen deer with Maxiballs and not one of them survived.90 grains ff Goex and a 370 grain Maxiball is an awsome load out of a 1 in 48 inch twist Hawkins.What in the world were you doing with those Maxiballs?I am LMAO.

Ah hell i had a nice type up but decided why bother? A person such as you who is 51 years old and still gets into fist fights over someone saying his new rifle is more accurate than his other one.... That says a lot.

Stay tuned for some patched round ball shooting with good ol american pioneer powder!

Oh yeah thats another one i took hell on too! American Pioneer LMAO.

CVA Blazer .45 240? grain TC MAXI ball , 70gr pyrodex P, a 35 yard shot though the high shoulders, deer ran a 1/4 mile before laying down. Next shot at oh hell, maybe 60 yards right behind the shoulder, deer got up and ran another 1/2 mile before going down!

No exits at all, in fact i never recovered the bullets in the animal while gutting.

After that Powerbelt bullets were available at the local stores and used them since. Only been using Thors the past 2 years.

OK.There's a big difference between 240 and 370 grains.

Look I never Bashed MD, all I asked him if he got all his MLers from CVA on loan or did he pay for them. He posted a Thread asking us to show all our MLer's and he showed us all his CVA's. If they wer'nt his to show I just wanted to know. I bought and paid for all My CVA's and Im not in the least bit jealous that he get's Free stuff, I have more stuff than I need, believe me. And I actually sold MD some Powerbelts last year for a good price.
As for the Freedome of Speach thing it was'nt twords me, it was twords ALL Members of the Forum. I said right or wrong People have the right to say whatever they want. I have nothing Personal against MD, he shoots CVA's and so do I. But I dont shoot Powerbelts as I know how they are, yet I never Bashed anyone for using them. But I will put My 2Cents in if I feel a Product is Hurting our Sport or does'nt preform as to do a Ethical Job on Harvesting Animal's, that's not Bashing a Product is telling it like it is.
(BP)

i noticed that earlier but my net has been acting up. Breechplug has never bashed me and i understand what he was asking before. Just an easy mix up guys.

Just cool down guys, when things heat up you just have to remember that its the internet, theres a lot of smack talk online and you just have to grow thicker skin and learn how to deal with it. Ive certainly had my share of practice on here over the years.

New slogan for Powerbelt Bullets - Powerbelts! So good everyone fights over them online!

I dont take anything for FREE, I work Hard for all I have and by no means am I Jealous about anyone getting FREE Stuff. I've had a Few Members on here offer to give me a few things for FREE, I did'nt accept them not because I was ungreatful, but because if I can get them on My Own I will and feel better inside knowing that I got them on My Own.
The Reason our Country is in the Shape it's in now is Because EVERYONE WANT'S FREE STUFF. If someone has something I need I'll glady pay for it If I cant get it on My Own. And remember Nothing's FREE, someone has to pay for it.
(BP)

Now That's Freekin FUNNY! (The Powerbelt Slogan)
(BP)

Well said Semi and you too flounder! What we all shoud do is explain the benefits of loads that are not Magnum and why Magnum Loads are NOT Needed. Newcommers think that if they shoot the (Maximum) Load then that's better, heck they bought a Magnum MLer why should'nt it preform best with 150gr's of Powder, right? WRONG!
The Manufactures have a Market for magnum MLers and they use it to make money, yet they do not tell you that you'd be way better off shooting 90-100+gr's of Powder than 150 or they'd lose money.
Heck even I fell victum to the Magnum Load and used it for years. I suffered accuracy and a Sore Arm but I still took Deer. Then I Nancy'd Up and started shooting 100gr's+- and boy was I surprised that not only could I still shoot as far but my groups were better, the Deer were just as Dead and My Shoulder did'nt Hurt Anymore.
(BP)

Be careful there Pluckit! You started this thread and this post comes awfully close to bashing! LOL

And Rogo cetainly gets into PERSONAL bashing about people whose motivations he really knows nothing of. So he certainly didn't hear what you were saying.

Bottom line is that your opening statement has been said on EVERY website I have visited through the years. The facelessness of the internet allows people to blow off steam in heated exchanges more than if we were sitting around the campfire.

I personally believe that MD would not knowingly tell a lie. I think he really believes everything he says. I probably agree with most of his opinions, but there are quite a few areas we differ. And without looking very far you will find out that he has done his share of brand/product bashing. I can dig up several threads where he pretty much bashes Hornady FPB bullets after literally shooting a handful (4 or 5 I think) from one gun. On the other hand I have shot litterally hundreds in multiple guns and have two elk taken with them. He has on more than one occasion bashed maxiballs, yet you love them for good reason. Just two examples, there are more if you look. And he gives his opinions as strong as any one out there.

And I am sure you can find threads where I seem to bash this or that product. However, I try NEVER to attack a person, just their beliefs or ideas.

To be honest, I think I would enjoy forums less if there was never any ruckus kicked up. Seems to me, I tend to learn the most when opposing views are expressed in a heated fashion, because it makes me really think.

And don't worry about MD, he has shown he can certainly take it and keep coming back. My advice is if you don't want to see controversy, you should avoid his posts because he does seem to attract more than his share. And that is not just on this website, but every forum he is on. And believe me, it has nothing to do with jealously. He can take it and he can dish it out. And I suspect, at least a little, he thrives on it.

Being completely new to ML (have not fired a shot and waiting to get my Hawken back from the gunsmith this weekend), I have found this forum very informative and interesting. I have also noticed a lot of "badmouthing" for lack of a better term.

I find the comments that people on here are trying to sell ML and ML equipment as being negative or bad very interesting. Of course they are. That's how some of the posters make a living. And that's why you can use this site and badmouth people (if you choose) - the advertising that pays for it. Things aren't free in life.

My personal thought and advice would be, if you figure out someone sells certain equipment and therefore favors that particular type of equipment, take what he or she says about it with a grain of salt. Consider that before you believe what they say or purchase something from them. Look around and consider other viewpoints before you make whatever decision you're trying to make. As long as someone isn't deliberately misleading you or trying to cheat you, there's really no reason to get so excited. It's up to everyone how they want to react, but I've found staying calm and simply disagreeing with someone is lot more productive and easier on you than getting all worked up and firing off heated exchanges.

minnesotadeer
what you say makes perfect sense.Thank You for saying it.