Giving the Blackhorn 1 more chance... help please!
 

(Thanks for your PM response to this issue MD! No need for you to read all this again)

I'm bound and determined to get Blackhorn to shoot in my Optima Elite. I have heard too much good stuff about it (and don't want the rest of what I bought go to waste). I first tried it a while back and had hang/misfires. I was directed to try CCI 209M primers, which I tried. No good. I contacted Western Powders via email and they instructed me to use #32 drill bit and a torch tip cleaner to keep my BP clean. I took it out and tried that, but my first shot hung and the second took 2 primers to get it to fire. I once again contacted the Blackhorn people, this time on the phone, and I spoke to a fellow named Don. He was very helpful and friendly, and figures my BP's flash hole is too narrow. He sent me the BP out of his CVA that he's been shooting, and it seems to have a larger flash hole. He asked me to send mine in for them to examine and possibly drill out (for no charge! woo hoo!) I am going to take it out this weekend and try it out.

I am an experienced muzzleloader shooter, but this stuff is throwing me for a loop. I've worked up loads with BP, Pyrodex, T7 ffg, various pellets, etc. This is the first time I've ever had to worry about getting my powder to ignite! I'm wanting some of you Blackhorn users to step me through your shooting process in case I am missing anything here. Starting with a squeaky clean bore... snap a few primers to clear the flash hole? How often should I clean out my BP? Do you clean your barrel between shots when fine-tuning your hunting load to simulate hunting on a clean barrel? Or do you snap primers or fire a round the night before the hunt before loading your hunting round in a fouled barrel?

I don't care how obvious, any tips would be appreciated. I am hoping like heck that the next outing with this powder impresses me as much as it does everyone else. I am guessing that the different breech plug will do the trick. If it doesn't, I guess I'll be interested in trying one of those vent liners I hear about...

Here is what I have to work with:
a can of BH209
T/C XTP's (240gr?) w/ supplied MagExpress sabots
Hornady 240gr XTPmags w/ supplied sabots
250gr SST's with Lo-Drag sabots
couple sizes of Shockwaves
CCI 209M primers
Remington STS primers

Assuming I can get the stuff to fire, I plan on trying 3-shot groups of each bullet/sabot over 90, 100, and 110 grains of BH to see what it can do at 100 yards. Based on what I've seen and read, I'm hoping to get the XTP Mags to group well at 100.

Thank you for any help y'all can give me

rw

A breech plug that has a powder pocket like the Omega breech plug will probably cure your problems. You can create a powder pocket in your CVA breech plug, by installing a vent liner. This installation has been discussed several times on this forum.

Another way to get a CVA breech plug with a powder pocket is to make one from a grade 8 bolt.

However you do it, a breech plug with a powder pocket should make your BH209 issues go away.

Your not doing anything wrong. The bottom line is, this powder was not made for CVA'S especially. The powder works well in the Triumph, Encores and Omega's with hot primers. fed209a, and CCIm. That's pretty much all you should use in those ML's. BH209 is also compatible with Knights with the concave breech plug. All other plugs wont work consistently in the Knights. The Savage was really the only factory ML as of late that could reliably shoot BH209 with most primers right out of the box.

I highly would not recommend drilling out a CVA plug and adding a vent-liner. I know people have and have good results. The problem is, you are taking away the hardness of the plug. CVA plugs are made of the cheapest materials you can buy. As a matter of fact, the entire guns are cheap. And obviously that's why they are cheap to buy.

My suggestion would be use 777 powder. You can do the same with it as you can BH209. Sure, a little more cleaning and swabbing between shot's but i'm sure your used to that already.

Or have a breech plug custom made for it with better materials and then shoot BH209.

BH209 is a great powder. By far my favorite. But i still can accomplish the same thing with 777 with a little effort.

PM me your address; i will mail this plug to you, and it will cure your issues with BH209.

CVA plug is fine with blackhorn209, you dont need the powder pocket like ron posts, but for $13 ron will make you a plug for the accura/optima/wolf with that pocket. Good investment as i personally do like that pocket.

A .035" flash hole is recommended by BH209 for the best performance along with cci 209M primers.

Ive shot 22 cans of BH209 in my CVA's with and without the enlarged flash hole and performance has been amazing.

I know i already sent this in a PM but its just for the others with questions.

The above is brought to you by the follow:

Lehigh bullets,

Knight Rifles - born to hunt

:lolabove:

I'm sure they appreciate the advertising from a true Muzzleloader enthusiast like yourself.

Grouse, I would imagine that words such as that are making MountainDevil grit his teeth!:biggrin:

Thanks for the responses guys!

rw

The internet is a crazy place. Just be safe and look at all options. Having a good breech plug made is less then a can of BH209.

As far as cost goes, I got to thinking about it. I went to WalMart to pick up a box of 777 pellets a while back. The boxes were out, so I bought the 24 pellet pack. $13. Hmmm... 12 shots for 13 bucks. The BH isn't so expensive after thinking about that!

rw

Actually, not a fair comparison. Bh209 is not sold in pellet form. 777ffg is at my walmart for $16.99 for a 1lb jug. Cabelas has BH209 for $29.99 for 10 ounces. BH209 is actually over double the cost. But, i still buy the BH209.:s4:

hunt12ga

Not to stir the pot anymore than it has been, CVA has a problem with their BP's and the use of BH-209. If you would like to verify check with Western.

I highly suggest you take Ron up on his offer he has a lot of experiance with this modification and he understands the necessity of it for a lot of folks, contrary to what ever FG/MD would lead you to believe.

The 3mm 'flash channel' and the small 'flash hole' will not allow the volume of gas from the hot primers to work - they will actually clog up the breech plug.

Here is a drawing of the modifications that I would suggest. Even the n you still may have a head space problem that may need to be addressed.



Work with Ron to get these mods or even PM me and I will modify a BP for you.

Good Luck

I have the BP that Don from Western sent me that I am going to try when this rain goes away. I have contacted Ron as well, and I am awaiting the arrival of my new BP! Thanks again Ron. Can't wait to try it out.

rw

I'm surprised. I have a CVA Kodiak Pro Magnum. Last winter decided to try BH209. Fired a dozen rounds w/ Federal 209A primers, and a couple with Winchester W209 primers, and the ignition was flawless. Cold and damp outside at that time. I realize that is not a whole lot, but when hunting, if it goes bang the first time, I'm happy.

One day it won't.

Ron, will your plug fit my rifle? Will that help me?
thanks.

It is my understanding that the Accura plug will fit the Kodiak. If it will, my plug will certainly give more reliable ignition using BH209.

[QUOTE=ronlaughlin;3728724]It is my understanding that the Accura plug will fit the Kodiak. If it will, my plug will certainly give more reliable ignition using BH209.[/QUOTE

PM sent.

u-all

I really do not know if Western will tell u-all as they have several of us. but by far the biggest share of their problems is with CVA breech plugs, but in fairness to CVA their plugs were never designed to handle BH.

Once you get you BP's altered with the Lehigh vent liner - actually any vent liner and the channel opened to at least 5/32" - most of your problem will disappear. One big point is the vent liner is hardened far harder than the original BP and will last for many years. You will actually be able to use a Win W209 one of the cooler primers to ignite BH and because of this your flash channel will not fill near as quickly.

Ignorant here. So what do I need, a vent liner for my plug, or just a different plug?
Don't know what a vent liner is, or what it does.
Thanks

I had a WinApex aka Kodiak Pro and Ron's plugs were a HUGE improvement. I tried about 3-4 variations in it. I was really anal about keeping my OEM BP clear and it never miss fired BUT after Ron's modded plug it had much less blowby also.

Smokey92

Look at sabotloader's pic and you will see the vent liner. It is basically a replaceable flash hole and will likely never erode since it is made to Savage smokeless specs and very hard compared to any breach plug material.

I think currently Ron is using a different style without a liner but i dont want to speak for him. His new "Omega type" design has worked great and is also made from a much harder steel. I have used the mildest primers available (WinT7s) with all of his plugs without a single hang fire with BH209 down to 40F.

smokey92

Installing a vent liner...

These are vent liners, Savage on the left, Lehigh on the right - I prefer the Lehigh, better metal and hardening process.



This is vent liners installed in a Omega plug



This is somewhat the process...



There also couple of schools of thoughts... One put the vent liner as close to the bottom of the primer as you can, and this is the one Western and other probably prefer, and the other one which works very well for me - is to install it out on the end of the plug. I prefer it out there as it increases the volume of gas the flash channel can hold. It can help reduce blow back pressure on the primer and the mess in the breech area, but to really control the mess in the breech - head space needs to be addressed.

Here are a couple of CVA plugs with vent liners installed.



One last picture that suggests what I think...

Thanks to all, getting educated here.