Knight Rifles coming back to the market!
 

I was reading through the most recent issue of American Hunter Magazine and the "Industry Insider" column was about Knight Rifles. Here's what it says...

"Less than a year after Knight Rifles - the company that pioneered in-line muzzleloaders - declared bankruptcy, new ownership announced it's bringing the brand back to the market. PI Inc. acquired the Knight Rifles brand. Jeff Beene, PI Inc.'s president, said, "I'm very impressed with my personal Knight rifles and want to breathe new life into this brand that started the muzzleloading world as we know it today."

Anyone heard anything about this?

i have not heard anything...i used to own a couple knights (i shoot a winchester x150 now) they were always great shooters .

I hope they make it back, great shooting rifles.

SW

This is relativiely old news... but, I really am hoping they can make a splash when they get back. The problem continues to be CVA, using foreign markets that gives them the ability to undercut the prices + their ability to copy and undercut. And there is no denying that they have improved their quality nearly 10 fold.

One of the big market questions that needs to be answered is, IMO, in the US market, are the bulk of the sales of ML's going to continue to be inexpensive muzzleloaders that extends the season for most hunters, or is there still a market for a QUALITY ml that might be considered a life time rifle. I continue to ask how many folks hunt year-round with a ML and how many hunt short special seasons only. Does all of this effect the price that you are willing to pay?

Can't beat a new CVA, top quality!

No doubt most of us on here are extremely more interested in muzzleloading than the average Joe. A lot of my friends (and family) think I am nutz. They do not seem to understand the need to have several guns and try several powders and bullets. So for the average Joe, one gun to extend their season is all they are after. This and a shortage of pocketmoney have fueled the desire or need to purchase less expensive guns. I too feel pinched for cash sometimes but I have bought some real quality used guns and have been very happy with them for the most part.
I try to buy American as much as possible even if it cost me a little more. I do not think most people care about that though...
As far as buying one of Knight's new offerings goes, it would have to be something pretty new and innovative for me to buy one. Even for me there is a limit to how many inlines I need. A real quality barrel with a faster twist might make me bite.
A lot of people rant about the Green Mountain barrels. My two best shooting Knight rifles were made before they went with Green Mountain. I do think the Green Mountain are quality barrels, but certainly not the best there is.
Forgive my ramblings,
Art

I wish the very best to Knight in their return. They are going to have to appeal to the casual shooter if they intend to stay in business though. Especially the way the economy is currently. They're going to have to offer some entry level $150-250 range guns to see a significant amount of sales and DO SOME ADVERTISING! The majority of new shooters I talk to now, the extent that they know of Knight is 'that company that went out of business'

They can sell some higher end guns to the ML enthusiasts but they would do well to offer a 1/24 twist, BH compatible, traditional bolt designed gun to appeal to me (and I feel like most others) I'd like to see them offer something like the Ultimate Slam they designed w/a 1/24.

90% of the people I meet that shoot MLs, just shoot them to extend their season. So that means AT MOST, one extra week in the field. For that, most are shooting the <$200 guns and whatever is on the shelf bullet wise at Walmart.

Few have the addiction as bad as us :s2:

I really dread the day when that statement is totally true!!!!

It already is true. Ive never had muzzleloaders with the kind of accuracy right out of the box where i didnt have to play around with charges.

Im shooting the White Hots today in my Accura and with 150gr charge and the 250gr slick loads, freakin shots are touching at 100 yards. Hopefully going to sight in that new Wolf tomorrow and she how that goes.

These guns with the new barrel machining are simply Accurate.

ya sure feel the need to hijack every thread and turn it into a CVA commercial don't ya. I thought this was a knight thread.

others before me were comparing.

Personally I hope Knight just keeps it small. And does not try to compete with the cheap rifles, and does not try to compete with the advertising of TC.

When Knight first came out their rifles(MK 85) were revolutionary. YES. But more important-their rifles were pure quality. Top notch triggers, the best barrels, and good stocks. they were just good quality rifles.

Then they went the way of the marketers. They let people convince them that their rifle was harder to clean. After all it did take 30 extra seconds to remove the bolt?? And people fell for that crap.

Personally I still think the MK-85 is one of the finest rifles still available on the market today. However they will not command the price they did when they first started making them.

It is a shame, but to make a quality product in America is difficult to do at a good price. I hate to see it, but Knight is probably again doomed to failure. Just not enough market out there. And not enough money to compete with TC in the advertising game. Tom.

MD can't help himself. Lord knows I have my own preferences. As Does many on this board I would think. ;)

I have only had one Knight product and that was my Knight Vision with the new, improved BP. I shoot BH209 and Hornday FPB bullets and this gun shines. I use it primarily for any long range shooting I will be doing.

As to other of their products, I really can't say. I must admit that I got into ML because of two additional weeks of deer hunting here in Virginia. But I have been bitten with this damned bug and I am into all manners of black powder shooting!

Knight did make a entry level gun that shot AWSOME... It was called the wolverine... I think it cost around 200 bucks... Gun shot just as good as my disc rifle for less than half the price...

I love my Knight rifle!!! Tryed to talk my friend into one when he decided to get into muzzleloading... He bought T/C... Just like everybody else did...

Knight will have to take there guns over sea's to compete...

Hell anymore I wouldn't want anything made in the US by lazy americans!!!

I have had a tk2000 shotgun and a wolverine209 for years, and couldnt be happier, they are one shot kill weapons that when matained properly are good for life.:poke:

Austin and Halleck and Gonic sold fine quality made in the USA guns. They are now out of business. i'm not sure that there is a market for fine quality made in the USA muzzleloaders any more. Sadly, there may not be a market for fine quality made in the USA anything.

i hope that Knight Rifles is able to make a triumphant return to the M/L market. But it is going to be rough sled ride at least for the short term.

Well maybe one good thing about the buyout is that they're not strapped with excessive high overhead costs and debt.
And if you look into the background of the buyer Plastic Industries, they have a lot of money from strong growth and sales over the years. A good & smart private company like that should be able to regrow Knight back into decent shape. The new owner isn't going to let his money get thrown away.
Will Knight survive?
Even if it's only on a smaller scale, you can bet your last dollar that they will!

i thought A&H was made in spain?

I am pretty sure A&H was US. The only rifle I own that is foreign made is my Lyman GPR. I own a Gonic, two Whites, and a few Knight's. I really do agree that Knight's comeback is going to be a tough row to hoe. It is hard to compete with foreign labor. I think T/C is on the verge right now. Everybody wants to keep their jobs but yet they are too cheap to pay a few extra bucks and buy American. It's a vicious cycle.

flounder33

The barrels were Spanish... they had the same proof marks that you would find on the CVA barrels of the time. Later when the company was moved to Utah, they eventually did change the proof mark to a greater value.

Thanks sabotloader.

Wow i didnt know that. RW never mentioned that on his site and gave the A&H rifles nothing but high praises.

I like buying American too but when foreign companies are the major share holders of a US company or vice versa, does it really make a difference? Not so much as long as fair trade rules apply and quality is high.

Knight should continue its "roots" in Iowa and let the Athens? location handle "entry" level offerings like a break action to compete with CVA. Out source the barrel to Bergara and use a US made receiver if they have to compete....just please avoid Chinese parts. ;)

In the end the customer service and quality will win customer loyalty and higher end sales.

It hooked me and i love my Accura but Knight will always get the first shot if they offer what i want.

Gm54-120

You will not believe the number of times that i have had the discussion with RW. But, his comment was that it was OK on the A&H because of the Octogan thickness of the breech are and that A&H had some extra testing.... and of course the big deal he was a paid sponor for A&H..

Most people do realize that all barrels exported from Spain by Spainsh law must be proofed by the House of Ibar... It is a way for Spain to support their proof house. The stamp you see on the barrel is the minimum proof test required by the export law. You can or the House of Ibar will proof to a higher standard but the company must pay for it. The minimum is required by Spanish law. Paying for the higher proof, which could be requested, would cut into the profit margins. The barrel companies themselves also do proof testing but are not required to publish those test.

I think the long throw of the bolt on an A&H - increasing the length of the whole rifle was part of there downfall.

I had 2 A&H's and they were very good guns - shot very well but man they were long....

Here is a picture of one of my A&H's - look how long the bolt is so you can imagine the added length to the barreled action. The rifle on the bottom is the A&H and the Remington 700ml is the top gun.

The short action is a big plus to me too. So much that my favorite bolt action is the Rem 600 over the 700SA in 308.

Im actually kinda of surprised Remington didnt use one of the cheaper short actions like the 788 ect for their MLs. The 788 had rear lugs that was entry level but should have been great for a ML application. Very good lock time and only 60 degree tilt on the bolt.

Hmmmm now you got me thinking of a nice custom :D

I've still got my one and only knight american. Still flattens deer and the odd moose. Kind of a pain to clean, but I got the time.

Originally Posted by MountainDevil54
Can't beat a new CVA, top quality!


Yeah I giggled out loud myself.

try to prove that statement wrong. 1" guarantee on CVA's bergara barrel or your money back.

I must be missing the 1" part from their website. I did notice they don't recommend sabots with bullets over 300gr or conicals exceeding 400gr. :D

http://www.cva.com/pdfs/accura_guarantee.pdf

I guess that's why we need Knight to come back.

why so you guys can shoot big loads and blow out unburnt powder? :D

Jon I am trying hard but I can't see what your point is. I know you like the CVA's and that they send you some freebees and stuff. I am also convinced that they are putting out a lot better product than they use to. Even the older ones didn't seem so bad to me, My first gun was a Winchester Apex and it shot great. But you don't have to run down other guns to promote your choice. How does shooting a heavy conical make you blow out unburnt powder. I just don't see the relationship. In fact when I shoot heavy conicals I use less than 80 grains of powder and I bet it gets used up pretty efficiently. Do you know something that the rest of the shooting world doesn't?

flounder33

I shoot a .503/460 grain Bull Shop Conical from both my GM fast twist sidelocks and from the inlines shooting 90 grains of T7-3f and shooting across a chrono I know I am effeciently buring the powder. I have even checked it across the snow...

Here is the ballistic table for that load... works very well for me...

im talkin the big mag charges with loose powder. Some here seem to knock the 100gr limit they put in the manual although if you call, they wont have a problem with you shooting 110-120. Actually the Apex's limit is 110gr. These figures are basically based on the testing they do and they find anything over 100gr starts to get thrown out burnt. Again, this is older info, with the design changes in their BP's over the years they probably just use those limits for now.

I can tell you though, 100gr white hots, 80gr 3f APP, a 300gr Thor and a 300gr Powerbelt Platinum this evening, left me with a bandaid on my nose. Im not sure what the fireworks looked like coming out of the barrel, my vision had turned black :D My Accura is safe though.

Winchester Apex was a nice one, i had the .45 model. Then the X-150 was my beauty back then.

Actually it is just the opposite of what he said. The larger the bullet, the more powder will burn before leaving the barrel. The larger bullet creates nmore pressure, and hence longer time in the barrel to push out the heaiver projectile, and to create a higher pressure. That is why heavier bullets need lower charges to attain max velocity for the heavier projectile. Tom.

most shooters dont shoot heavy bullets and i never mentioned bullet weight in my original post about throwing out unburnt powder. Big loads was meant as shooting magnum powder charges. Big bullets these dont make up the muzzleloading world, its the smaller 250 and below.

In the real MZ world the round ball is the main projectile. Definitely not bullets under the weight of 250 grains. I do not know the real numbers but my guess is that for every one bullet under 250 grains shot, there is probably fifty round balls shot in MZ's.

This is a specialty forum. And is frequented by guys who are on the cutting edge of MZ shooting. And guys who are die hard MZ shooters. We are very very far from the average MZ shooter.

Heck the average MZ shooter can not even hit a target at 150 yards with any MZ.

And also in the real world of MZ shooting there are a lot of guys shooting conicals. Heck sabots have only been around for 25 years or so. And are illegal to even hunt with in some states.

There are alot more big loading, big bullet shooting guys out there than you think. Heck I would not doubt it a bit if there wasn't more factory conicals in variety than their is sabots?? Tom.