Blackhorn 209... that much better?
 

I started out using old school black powder. Many of the folks new to shooting modern muzzleloaders have never messed with the stuff. It shoots great, but chances are your wife will not let you (let alone your messy gun) in the house for cleaning. :confused0024:

I went to Pyrodex, which I never cared for much. I didn't think it was worth the switch from BP.

Next was the Triple7. I like the easy cleanup, and it's still what I'm using. I shoot two 50gr pellets under either Shockwaves or Hornady SST-ML's. It's a deer killer, but I don't have the downrange consistency that I think my Optima is capable of.

I started finding articles and reviews of the Blackhorn 209 stuff. I don't think I've found many bad things about it aside from ignition issues due to wrong primers and fouled breech plugs.

What do you all have to say about the stuff? Is it worth driving all around the countryside to find? I'm willing to pay for a can of it if you all agree it's as good as what I've already read. I'll be derned if I'm going to pay the hazmat fees though. I'll wait til I go somewhere that has it first. Let me know if should be the next thing that I try!

thanks-
rw

Bh209
 

I have run the gamut with various powders, pretty much tried them all. I have now found the combo of BH209 and Winchester 209A primers (hottest shot shell primer on the market) well worth it, and no ignition concerns. Excellent accuracy and cleanup is a snap with just Hoppe's #9. Only thing about BH209......EXPENSIVE!

DougB.

In your post you indicate... Winchester 209A? I am thinking you mean Federal 209A - Winchester makes a W209.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/c...r-primers.aspx

And you are right as good as BH is it is to expensive for me... I am staying with T7 powder.

Bh209
 

You are right! Federal 209A.

I guess it depends on a couple of things, when I used 777 I got crudring really bad it was a 5 to 10 minute job just to get the gun clean enough so it could be loaded.
Now my time is limited and when I have some shooting time thats what I want to do not scrub a nasty hard crudring. When I tried Blackhorn and found that not only could I not clean the gun actually groups better that way and according to the records I keep I got rid of 70% of the unaccountable fliers that had occasionally bothered me.
The other item I ran into is that when I did my pressure testing I got the same velocity as 777 but an average of 15% less pressure so the pressure peak is lower and flatter with the same load. which means I can load 15% more and get more velocity. Because of the fact that it is progressive burning rater than a constant burn powder it pushes the heavy bullets better velocity wise than a constant burn powder.
And then there is the supply the local gun shop has it but they also charge about 6 dollars more than I can get it from Powder Valley for including the has mat fee.
The price is a about 3 dollars higher than 777 bought the same way here, of course there many be someone who knows where to get 777 cheaper as I have no interest in the stuff after using Blackhorn.I buy my Blackhorn by the case from powder valley with hazmat and shipping it costs me 27 dollars a can for the last batch I bought.
There are some people who do not get crud ring and there are some who would scrub all day for the difference in price and who are not interested in the fact that you can get more velocity for the same pressure. It really depends on what a person prefers and what they chose to spend there money on. Lee

I've been using BH209 for 2 years now and its the best powder I have ever used. I use it in my Omega and Endeavor with Win209 primers and haven't had any issues what so ever. Not to mention that its easy to clean up with Hoppe's #9. Get a can, I don't think you will be sorry.

At the NRA convention 2 weeks ago here in Charlotte the Blackhorn rep told me I could use Blackhorn in my mk85 but just keep lowering the charge till the blowback subsided.I only took 8 shots with it and was using 100 gr equiv loads. I never had a problem igniting using cci 209m primers. The blowback would about fry my face using this load. I have not used it again since Knight and the folks on here warned me not to use it. I wonder if lowering to about 80 gr would be safe as the Blackhorn rep said.

Thanks for the input. I found it at a semi-local gun shop for $32 a can. I'm going to try a can when I make it over there. I'll let you all know how it goes!

rw

hunt12ga

Just remember that is $32 for 10 ounces...

10oz of the best powder you can shoot at the moment IMO.

Blackhorn is a great powder without question. My concern is the price of course, but also the availability. I have to order it. While I would love to shoot it in my inlines, I just can not justify the cost.

Also a lot of my in lines are not made for Blackhorn 209. I learned this the hard way. I will stick with powder I can purchase locally and use in ALL my rifles for now. I just got a deal on some Triple Seven and Pyrodex RS. The local Wal Mart did not sell all their stock and had several cans on the shelf at a very reduced price. So of course it came home with me.

I personally don't see the need to switch. I have had great results with T7 - great accuracy, velocity and no crud ring problems. Cleanup is a piece of cake. But everyone's experience may vary. If I had major crud ring issues, I would consider switching. But I also can get T7 a LOT cheaper - like $14 for 16 oz during the after-season sales, as opposed to $30 for 10 oz BH209 locally. But again, if you don't shoot very much, it may not be a big issue. I don't shoot a lot now, but I'm still a cheap-o at heart :).

lets put it this way... Its cheap for hunting use. For target range, use the cheaper stuff that you can get locally and save the can of BH209 for hunting season. Same goes with bullets.

I went threw 8 jugs last year in my knight extreemes. When I was done I decided that it didn't shoot any better than t7. I got a pair of lehigh Gen II breech plug's a month ago and thought I'd give it another go. Out of these guns with the lehigh plug, BH is outstanding. Shoots very well, no swabbing between shots, clean up is a breeze, yep in these guns with the way they are set up it is worth what it cost. Oh did I mention clover leafs all day long unless I mess up.

BH209 cost
 

You know I really get a kick out of all the comments about how much BH209 costs. Now don't get me wrong, I don't go "throwing" money around either, my wife might disagree! I was thinking about the hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars that sportsman much like myself spend on firearms, GPS's, hounds/field dogs, trucks, ATV's, vet bills, optics, field gear, hunting trips etc. Now there's the same people that fish, trap, shoot trap, play golf, go to sporting events, camp etc. Add up the investments/expenditures and try to convince me that the outdoors-men/women complaining about a $30.00 jug of powder have a justifiable complaint.

I don't complain about the cost.....nor should I. I enjoy the benefits and enjoy my hobbies. There is a price for everything.

Forgot to add........BH209 IS that much better!

DougB
I have to agree with that.
People spend 300 to 1200 dollars on a single gun and scope depending on the quality level they live at and the cry about the price of the best powder and go down and buy an other gun. I understand liking a different powder better, no problem buy what you like,but why cry about the price of what somebody else likes?

I feel the cost complaint is very valid. It is not so much the cost of the powder but the fact for much less money, I can shoot Triple Seven or some other local powder, so no waiting for the mail man, the haz mat (which burns me for some reason) and I get the same kind of results in accuracy. Clean up never was an issue, nor was swabbing. Its part of the muzzle loader game. And when I shoot powder other them BlackHorn 209, it is cheaper to do. Any time I can save a buck it makes me happy.

What I personally get such a kick out of is how some of the people who entered the sport of muzzle loading want the rifle to act like a center fire. Shoot 200+ yards, no swabbing, no fouling, clean up is a breeze, these people would have been going crazy thirty years ago, when I was out there plugging away with a traditional rifle and round balls shooting Pyrodex RS or Black Powder.

And I am not saying one powder is better then the other. Or one philosophy of the sport is stronger then the other. If you like BlackHorn (and there is no reason you should not other then it is not sold locally) buy it, or what ever brand makes you happy and for what personal reason. If cost of product per shot is important to one person and not the other... then so be it. Also where and how I spend my sporting good dollars, for what ever reason, is my business. Do what makes you happy!!

When my pay range time includes cleaning time, YES it is the best for me.

At my private range any powder will do since i allow more cool down time. I am also a guest at another "members only" range (pending acceptance) with no "by the hour" charges.

Many people at that range dont like a huge cloud of smoke drifting in front of them when i shoot. They dont mind if im using BH209 since it has a far smaller cloud than most powders and less smell.

Its all relative to my/your needs. If and when i can get it to leave little or no crud ring i will adjust my opinion. I do think T7 is a very good powder but i buy bulk (locally) when BH209 on sale for a similar price...excluding the weight difference.

I also prefer heavier bullets and BH209 is better for many of my really heavy bullets such as my 50-385gr Rem CLHP in my 54cals.

Since the GenII Lehigh release i can even ignite it reliably with Win T7 primers and get outstanding accuracy and its super clean in my Knights.

Im getting ready to give T7 another go since ive been using the Montana Extreme products and polished the bores (once in each) for a few months and want to see if it makes a T7 crud ring difference.

I actually think it may since cleanup of BH209 is now easier too since i started using their products and stopped using RemOil in the bore. I dont mind a quick swab between shots but a stuck jag or really hard ring is unacceptable for me.

This weekend im hoping to give T7 3FG another try in my 45s with some light weight bullets at my property where i have plenty of time for a proper test on my firing schedule. Plus it does seem to be better than BH209 with lighter bullets and loads.

Better and Best will always be "relative TO ME" and subject to change based on my needs. Keeping your options open never hurts....at least not much. :D

Please explain to me why a 10 oz. jug of BH209 costs $30, but a 9 oz. jug of Trail Boss (newly developed a few years ago by IMR) cost $12.

Because enough people are willing to pay the ridiculous price.

Same reason a 20oz bottle of water is $1.30. People are willing to pay for it.

As for the main question: I shoot pratically all brands/types of powder. I like them all for various applications. If I were only shooting scoped inlines with sabots, yes BH would be my #1 choice. Cleanup or swabbing doesn't bother me, I just prefer the consistency/accuracy from shot to shot that I can't seem to get with other powders (personally).

As far as price, we are being taken for a ride by the company that produces it. They more or less have us by the short hairs.

As far as the product, I love it. Not because it simulates a smokeless powder. But becasue it gives me the opportunity to reach out a lot further for that long ML shot! I use it exclusively in my Knight Vision and the performance is great!

As far as my shooting pleasure, I use the real deal: BLACK POWDER!!! It smells great and makes a lot of smoke!!!

But the price is what makes it so controversial. If we didn't have this to talk about, then what else? ;)

I guess I value my time because the amount of time I can spend shooting is limited, I have to agree its overprice, it is easy to get a break down on the components and compare. They are making the same kind of profit the oil refineries are.
But to me its worth it I can only spend 4 hours a week shooting most of the time and it is worth it to me to make the most of my shooting time; and then accuracy comes into it to no other powder has given me any 1/2 inch groups and the difference in the amount of fliers for unknown reasons is enough to make me pay the price by it self; and last but not least is the velocity I get with 140 gr at the same pressure 115 gr of 777 gives me while still maintaining that accuracy.
My wishes are that the Black Mag 3 or 4 which ever it was some one sent me a can of goes into production. It is noticeably heavier than Blackhorn but by volume produces the same velocity is very clean and ignites with a #11 cap very consistently. I use most of it in my traditional so I can not say much about what it would do in inlines but my preliminary testing shows it to be wonderful in traditional and the equal of Blackhorn in inlines. And while I have no idea what the price would be I would probably get a case for starters.