T/C letter for conicals
 

I have only good things to say about T/C in quality and customer service, EXCEPT where it comes to them building an inline with a closed breech that will shoot a conical!!

Here is a letter I wrote them. If enough of us contact them, maybe we can get something done?

"Does T/C have any plans to come out with an inline with a closed breech that will shoot conicals well? I own an Omega, but will not buy another T/C unless they are designed for full bore conicals.

I must confess that I only hunt Colorado and Texas, but even though I can use sabots in Texas, I stick with conicals to reduce overall expense and room in my possibles boxes. I know of lots of other guys who are in the same boat. From what I know, if you did come out with such a gun, there would definately be a market. And there is an increasing supply of new, premium conical bullets ( Hornady FPB and Thor bullets to name two).

Obviously, to do that, you would have to either lose the QLA, or make it better.

Why not simply come out with an Omega/Triumph... version that you don't cut the QLA. Seems cheap enough to try. I really think you would be surprised at the market. I love the quality of your products as well as your outstanding customer service, but won't be buying another one until this problem is addressed."

I have never shot conicals out of a Triumph or an Omega. Do you think the rifling might have something to do in all this mix as well. I have shot conicals out of my Black Diamond XR with good results. And that rifle has a QLA on it.

That may be a factor as well, as I have heard of other models with a QLA that shoot well too. However, it seems like some have chopped off the QLA and it has improved the accuracy with conicals. I may be wrong, but I think that is the main culprit.

Especially because conicals that have a minnie ball like "bell" on the rear end like a sabot seem to shoot well (powerbelts, FPBs, and Thors). I think the "skirt" seals in the gasses better as it exits the QLA. When I shot no exuses 460 gr bullets in my Omega, I got 5 to 8 inches at 25 yards! Some went through the target sideways. Seems like that is not just rifling but gasses kicking the bullet sideways

they'll tell you that its the Twist, Its to fast for conicals.

That dog won't hunt! Whites with a 1 in 24 twist shoot conicals real well.

And isn't the Accura a 1 in 28 " gun as well?

yes it is. They'll tell you to try a powerbelt and if it doesnt shoot, send it in for a new barrel. I got that run around when i had my omega and the sights wouldnt adjust enough. No way i was sending in for a barrel replacement just because the sights didnt offer enough adjustment

I don't know about conicals specifically, but I know my T/C Encore 209x50 wouldn't shoot any load in the Encore manual worth a crap. I was about to get rid of the gun until I talked with someone at Precision Bullets about my problem. He recommended two of their heavier .50 cal. bullets (a 300 gr. spire point and a 330 gr. HP, both with sabots.) Without changing ANYTHING else, my gun went from shooting tumbling bullets that might not hit a 4' x 4' target holder at 100 yards, to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. Since then, I have found other bullets, all in the 300 + gr. weight which are also longer than the lighter bullets that shoot equally well in my Encore. Apparently T/C barrels can be very finicky about what they will shoot, and inconsistent from one gun to another as well. My gun prefers heavier and longer bullets. My gun also has the QLA feature. I suspect the barrels on the Encore, Omega and Triumph are the same.

I guess I really don't understand the problem. I have an Omega, a Triumph, and a Encore Endeavor and they will shoot under an inch with 200 gr bullets and sabot 250 gr bullets and sabot 300 gr bullets and sabot now I have not tried every thing and there are a couple bullets that just won't shoot for me like the 240 gr and the 269 gr I get up to one three quarter inch groups with them but they shoot 5 conicals and those explosive PB's very well [I use the PB's for varmint but I can put a plug in the hollow point and make them behave if I want. Now I am an old hand at muzzle loading my Grandfather started me with a pair of his originals long before there were any commercial made muzzle loaders so I probably had and advantage before I had a muzzle loading and archery shop for 20 years. But I will tell you if you figure out how to do it you can make those TC guns and many of the others for that matter do what you need. I have yet to see a TC, Knight or White that I could not get to shoot good.
And that is not to say that some of the others won't also.

I have always shot heavy saboted bullets in my omega and Encore 300 and 400 gr cast 45.

"I guess I really don't understand the problem."

Well, T/C acknowledges the problem. When the Omega came out, they stated on their website that it would shoot "sabots and conicals alike". They have since taken that off and will tell you if you call that it is designed for sabots, and they now don't make any claim that they will shoot conicals.

And a new gun that shoots 8 inch groups at 25 yards with a bullet as good as the no excuses has something more wrong than just normal tinkering will fix IMO.

I paid about $500 for the Omega about 6-7 years ago for hunting in Colorado, and until the FPB came out, the only bullet it would shoot was powerbelts. And that was with 4 years of tinkering with different bullets, different powders, wads, etc. Was going to sell it when FPBs came out.

But I told them the truth. I won't buy another one of their guns until they get this issue resolved.

My T/C Firehawks, and Thunderhawks, one in .50, and one in .54 each shoot Maxi Balls, and Maxi Hunters quite accurately. I prefer these to my Encore. These older T/C models have a 1 in 38" twist rate, vs. the 1 in 28" twist in the Encore. They are worth a look if you shoot conicals. Easily and inexpensively converted to use musket caps, by just installing a musket cap nipple in place of the standard #11 nipple, if you use 777, pyrodex, etc.

I have a 50 and 54 caliber T/C renegade that shoots conicals well. Just love the design and ease of cleaning of the Omega/ closed breech 209 type shooters. I also really like BH 209, which of course will only shoot in inlines.

I really can't see where the T/C design is to blame. The "industry standard" 1:28 rifling will shoot conicals. I have a Traditions Genesis that shoots FPBs and it has 1:28 rifling and a QLA feature. That's not to say the QLA has nothing to do with the problem, but it does sound from what I've read that the T/C QLA is suspected by more than a few guys to be a "problem". As I said, I shoot FPBs. I don't need the QLA as I pre-size the bullets and can start them easily with fingers only.

What do you want T/C to do, market a gun without QLA as something "better" for conical shooters? Would you have them make any other changes along with it? They might see that as admitting they don't execute the QLA very well or consistently.

What do I want them to do? Offer a closed breech 209 gun that will shoot conicals.

Here is a T/C reply to an email I sent them asking if they would sell me an Omega barrel without the QLA:

Hi David,
Sorry but we don't sell Omega barrels seperately. We also don't offer custom Omega barrels without the QLA. The twist rate (1:28) in our Omega rifles was designed more for the sabot type bullets vise a conical which uses a 1:48 twist rate.


Thank You,
Don
TCA Customer Service
866-730-1614 ext 5793

Here is the reply I sent to him:

Not sure I understand your theory since both my knight rifles with a 1 in 28 twist shoot conicals well and White rifles, well known for shooting conicals, have a 1 in 24 twist.

I am convinced that it is your QLA that is the problem with conicals. I love the design of the Omega, but won't be buying another T/C with a QLA since I hunt Colorado. At this point, when anyone on the internet asks for advice about what rifle to buy, I tell them you have great products, but if they plan on hunting Colorado (or any other state that doesn't allow sabots), don't buy a T/C. Will keep making that recommendation until you decide to design rifles that will shoot conicals.

Has anyone actually tried shooting your barrels without the QLA to see if they will shoot conicals better? My Omega shoots 460 gr No excuse bullets at 5 to 8" at 25 yards! Some go through the target sideways. I figure with that bad of accuracy, the bullet has to be getting kicked sideways as it passes through the QLA. If this is true, it seems like it would be cheap for you to offer a "no QLA" version of your rifles as well. Just don't cut one!

Some have had a gunsmith remove their QLA and have had better luck with conicals. I may do that eventually on mine. When I bought my Omega, you actually were still advertizing on your website that the Omega would shoot "both sabots and conicals well" but I notice you no longer have that claim.

One other thing that convinces me that it is the QLA is that they are hit or miss on conicals. My brother bought an identical Omega that shoots conicals just fine, and I know of many others that do as well. So way is it that 1/3 to 1/2 don't? Got to be something more than the rate of twist.

thanks for your reply. Hope you will think about this.

The T/C guy told you that "conicals use a 1:48". Hmmm, T/C's own literature described the 1:48 as a compromise twist rate, that would shoot round balls and conicals well enough, for years. If 1:48 is a compromise, it can't be the optimal rate for either round ball or conical.

As I said, my 1:28 Genesis shoots FPBs very well. You've stated that 1:24 guns shoot conicals well. So we know the twist in typical T/C barrels is not the problem. All that's left is the QLA. T/C's new commercial - "We've eliminated our crappy QLA (the same QLA that we've bragged about) for all you conical shooters". I don't think you'll get them to do that. You never know though, with the increased recent interest in bullets like FPBs, T/C may have to concede, especially if they see descreased sales. But there again, the competition does not seem to have the same trouble with conicals and QLA. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just wondering what spin T/C could put on it that would not make them look bad.

If you really want to shoot conicals out of your T/C, remove the QLA. Maybe reaming it out only a few thousandths would work? With all the new bullets out there I'd be surprised if it wouldn't shoot at least one conical well. I plan to try the newer 300 gr FPB this year.

Well, not sure if you read enough to know, but my Omega shoots FPBs just fine too (3-4 inches at 100 yards with open sights). Just don't want to be limited to one kind of conical.

Here is the latest correspondence from T/C:


Thank You for your interest and loyalty to T/C. I am proud to let you know that we have developed a muzzleloader that should meet your needs, it's called the Northwest Explorer. It looks very much like the Omega but uses a percussion cap for ignition and has a 1:48 twist rate for conical. You can check it out on our website @tcarms.com

Sincerely, Peter D. T/C Customer Service

Unfortunately, when I told them my "needs" I mentioned a closed breech (Norhwest has an open one to meet some state requirements) and a 209 shooter (this one shoots only #11 caps). The interesting thing is that it DOES have a QLA.

Does anyone out there know of someone shooting one?

I shoot 3 TC guns with QLA and have no problem with conicals when I want to use them. The FPB and the Thor will shoot one hole groups with 90 gr of Blackhorn, and before they came about I shot a 460 gr regular conical or a PB with the hollow point filled and could get 1.5 inches. Now I don't mess with them a lot as I consider the sabot-ed bullet a better choice but when I go to an other state I follow the laws even if the people making them don't understand what they are doing. I do believe that the forced use of conicals with there rainbow trajectory causes more lost game with a bad hit because of the trajectory and the time in flight. Lee

Heres another unhappy fellow with a tc and conical problems, even the FPB wont shoot.
http://www.biggamehunt.net/forums/vi...120690#p120690

There are another 3 guys in his group that are waiting to shoot theirs.

Just looked on the internet and the Greenhill formula would indicate the rate of twist for a 50 cal conical 1" in length is about 1:38. I don't know the exact length of a 50 cal Maxiball, but I think it is close to an inch. The formula gives 1:41.6 for a bullet length of 0.9" and 1:34.1 for a bullet length of 1.1".

The formula is only a starting point, but I'll bet the "best" twist for 50 cal lead conicals is not 1:48. I think that Green Mountain makes muzzleloader barrels in 1:38, and I bet they are great conical shooters.

I'm thinking some of the problems with lead conicals and 1:28 rifling is gas cutting or the twist is too fast for lead to grip, but I have no real experience to back that up.

UncleNorby
My System One made by TC just before they came out with the QLA is a 1-38 twist and will shoot bullets with a sabot up to 250 gr and all the common conicals quite well.
My personal belief is that there are two ways to shoot conicals with a QLA one is the hollow base which seals all the way to the end of the muzzle and the other is a wad over the powder a column of corn meal or such filler long enough to push the bullet past the end of the muzzle before any gas can escape along the sides of the bullet and cause deflection.