Cleaning a rifle that makes little sense.
 

We all know how to or have a set pattern for cleaning our muzzle loaders. I have a set pattern I use for cleaning traditional rifles and inline rifles.

Today I was shooting a .58 caliber traditional rifle. I was shooting Goex 2f black powder. As the claim goes, shooting black powder is the worse powder to use if you hate to clean your rifle. Many of us use a certain brand of powder because we like the power but also because we like the way it cleans up.

I had shot fifteen rounds approximately today. I never swabbed the rifle even though I was shooting black powder. Yet I came in and made up a soap and water bath. I wet a patch and ran it in the barrel pumping the water through the barrel. I was intending to flush the black powder out the barrel. I was shocked when I pulled the FIRST patch. It was gray in color, not black with powder as I suspected. Granted there were dark black streaks on the patch where it had contacted the rifling. But this patch was no where near the color I expected it to be.

I then worked a second patch through the barrel and it came back out, almost pure white. It had a few streaks from the rifling, but it was so clean, I set it off to the side to dry because I intend to reuse it for something, swabbing or something, in the future.

The third patch was almost perfect. I was shocked. This was black powder I had used. I was so suspicious that the rifle cleaned so easy, I then ran an alcohol patch, sprayed the barrel with brake cleaner and brushed it, and used Birchwood Casey #77 black powder cleaner. All of the patches came out clean. Even the patch used to oil the bore back up was clean. This was really a strange thing, the way the rifle cleaned up.

Maybe being the bigger caliber it flushed clean easier. Anyone experience something like this?

What I am getting at is... people buy Blackhorn 209, Triple Seven, JSG, American Pioneer powder, and a lot of people use this because they claim it is easier to clean the rifle. Yet today, shooting black powder, my rifle cleaned up as easy as the other powders I shoot.

Has any black powder shooter every had a day like this? You shoot black powder and then as you clean the rifle you wonder what is so bad about cleaning the rifle? Black powder is more consistent, it ignites easier then most powders, but people avoid it because it is hard to clean. Well I kind of like Goex and I would sure argue the cleaning aspect of the powder.

I agree with you on that. I've always felt GOEX was easier cleaning than either Pyrodex or Triple Seven. I've never found cleaning the gun after a shoot much of a chore anyway - rather enjoy it actually. Funny thing about that .58 though. It seems to foul less than my smaller calibers. I wonder why that is. Could it be that GOEX burns more efficiently in a larger bore?

Those 10 shots i did today with APP - Barricade patch. When i cleaned it out today, this is what my first patch came out looking like! I may try this with goex in the flinter and see what it looks like.

Cay...We all know folks are funny...I'm one of those that still changes his own oil, filters, drive belts and checks tire pressure on my vehicles on a regular basis...

I have a hunting buddy that never cleans even his centerfire rifles, doesn't even own a cleaning kit...Every few years he gets me to do it...

I believe where the problem lies is folks want to run 2-3 patches down the barrel and be done...With black powder over 50% is left over as residue after you shoot...The easiest way to clean is to wash it out with water or another solvent...

The marketing guys in this business sure have a field day with the unsuspecting...I'm always amazed at guys that are thinking about getting into muzzleloading that come to me for advice...Often times I have a hard time convincing them that they have been brainwashed...

Cayugad,
It's not a matter of cleaning faster or easier. With BH209 you dont need to clean as often. And also there is a huge velocity difference between Black powder and 777 or BH209. I still use Black Powder in my Flintlocks. But i would not if i could get 777 to ignite as consistent as Black Powder.

One thing for sure, speed kills. As long as you stay with in the Muzzleloader reccomended loads i still prefer the fastest i can shoot any weight of bullet (accurately). From 350grns down to a 200grn bullet.

Also i never had a crud ring with Black Powder. 777 i always have it. BH209 i do not. Hands down BH209 IMO is the best all around powder to use in inlines if affordable.

As far as soap and water in the barrel. I have no reason in the world to do that unless i get a plastic build up in my ML. Sabotloader did convince me that hot boiling water is the best way to get rid of plastic build up for sure. I have always noticed soapy water cleaning Muzzleloaders is a really fast and easy way to clean. I want the least amount of water touching my barrels or metal as possible. So i dont suggest to anyone to use the hot water cleaning method unless your ML does not have a breech plug.

One of the things I like about muzzleloading is that there are as many ways to do things as there are shooters. What works well for one shooter is a big no no for another.
I got started using warm water with a little dawn dish soap to clean my guns and I still do it that way. I just can't see any negative effects to my barrels the way I do it so I will continue doing it that way. I'm not saying you can't do as good a job with other cleaners it is just the way I prefer doing it. I know with BH209 you must use a solvent, but I generally don't shoot the stuff.
Tom, I respect your opinion greatly but I'm not sure I agree with the "faster is better" premise, not in muzzleloading nor in life.
Art

Dave I don't know about others but for me its got more to do with accuracy and not having to clean the "crud-ring" which for me is quite a job I get it worse than anyone else I have seen. I shoot my traditional rifles with pyrodex and it does not bother me a bit, some times I still use black powder which also works as well as ever. But with a good inline when I want to shoot long range there is nothing quite like a good charge of Blackhorn and getting 2200 or 2300 FPS with the fine accuracy at 200 or 250 yds that I have not been able to get with a muzzle loader before.

High speed sure isn't necessary with those .570 pure lead balls, too much speed is actually detrimental...

1200fps kills just as quick as 1800fps...

I used to load up my .54 with 120grs of FF, the last 10 years or so I've gone down to 80grs FFF...With higher charges the balls actually flatten and then the edges start to peal back which decreases their diameter...Less powder keeps this from happening...

Less powder also leads to less fouling and more complete ignition, kinda like properly adjusting the carb on an engine...

What I was getting at in this post, and I see some have the same experience. I have read and listened to people talk about the use of black powder. You'd think it was a momentous task to clean a rifle shot with black powder. My findings are just the opposite.

How many posts or horror stories have you heard about, you have to swab between each shot, the second you shoot your gun it starts to rust, it takes hours to clean the rifle of this stuff.

I shoot black powder (from one maker or another) about 90% of the time. Why?? because I am a cheap old devil, so I can buy black powder in bulk and shoot lots for less money, it is not the fastest powder in the world when you compare what Triple Seven or Blackhorn 209 can make a projectile do, but I dare any animal to take a hit from a .570 ball with 110 grains of 2f Goex. Slow or not, that thing is going to do a world of hurt.

I am not going to argue that for some projectiles and rifles, there might be better powder then black powder. But I have shot black powder from inlines as well, and never found it lacked in power to do what I need it to do.

And yesterday, when I began to clean the .58 caliber I really was shocked when I pulled that first patch out of the barrel/water bath. I expected a filthy black grimy, just horrible patch. When it came out gray with a few black streaks I was shocked. I even checked the cleaning jag to make sure it was a .58 and was pressing hard enough against the insides of the barrel.

Later when I was trying other cleaners, I soaked a white cotton patch and then set some old cotton T shirt (very thin) behind it so I could force it even harder into the groove. I am sure others have done the same. And still that patch was clean.

As for cleaning other powders. Yes Pyrodex can be filty, triple seven will throw a bad patch or two when cleaning, and black horn when I used that, well the solvent patch I used was pretty dirty, but the next was almost clean. So all powders can be a challenge when we clean these muzzle loaders, but I find black powder no more of a challenge.

Love Goex It smells right. It reminds me of the fun I had as a kid before they made firecrackers illegal up here in Canada. Cleanup has never been a problem so I don't know what the issue is. Just don't leave it laying around dirty. Failure to clean in a timely fashion is slothfulness. That's a highfalutin word for lazy and uncaring.

Around here you have to drive about 30 miles one way to pay T7 Prices for real black. some of us (me) do not want to order 25 to 50 pounds of the stuff and pay the hazmat fee to use the stuff. So far I've been doing good getting T7 for less than 10.00 a pound at Wally world end of winter sales.

As for cleaning I still feel today that there isn't a much easier ML to clean than a T/C hawkins or sinular type rifle. Remove the nipple throw it in a pail of scalding water with a good amount of dollar store dish soap. several pumps of the water sulotion up and down the bore. Dump out that mess refill the pail with more scalding water to rince. By the time you fish the nipple out of its bath and wipe down the stock the barrel is dry enough to oil and wipe down.

I am amazed at how many I hear and see make the statement of how easy the rifle is to clean effected what they bought.

I guess that is why I see so many cars/trucks covered with road salt and mud is there is no cheap car wash in town and the person won't use a quarter wash as it is to labor intesive.

:D Al

I have to agree that the cleaning does not have much to do with what I use except I don't use 777 because of the crud ring none of the rest are a problem. With as high as 4 or even 5 big game seasons open at the same time for those of us that get lucky and get an elk tag I am not going to use some thing I have to clean every shot and lose a chance at some thing over it.

What are you using to preserve the barrel after you finish cleaning it? Was just wondering if you might have found a protectant that doesn't let the black powder adhere to the metal as much? If you are not doing anything different in that area, then I don't know.

This barrel is treated with Rem Oil. I swab it all out before I shoot. And this thing will shoot a long time before it needs swabbing. I personally thing the large caliber has something to do with all this.

I have pretty much always(since 1970) used regular ol black powder and cleaning has just not ever been a problem. Back about 1975 I was still shooting percussion rifles and tried Pyrodex but really didn't like it. I seemed to have too many hang-fires. Being one to have an open mind to new products , I have tried several other BP substutes over the years but have found no real advantage in them for my use. One exception is that I like triple 7 for use in my 1858 Remington. It just shoots cleaner.

When I used my old CVA big bore Mt. Rifle I would drop the breach end of the barrel in very hot water ( no soap) and pump it in and out of the barrel a few times and the patch always came out grey. The barrel would become so hot that I could not hold it without an oven mit. Followed up with several dry patches that always came out clean and I was done cleaning. I would always oil the inside of the barrel the next day after the barrel had cooled. The bore on that rifle is still in perfect condition today.

I now shoot flintlock rifles with a non-hooked breach and pinned barrels . To clean I remove the lock and plug the vent and pour cold water down the bore and let it stand for a few minutes while I clean and service the lock. I then pour the water out and run a brass brush down the bore a few times. This removes any crud in the breech area. I then run dry patches in and out. The first couple of patches are usuallp pretty black but the third or fourth patches are usually fairly clean. Next I use patches soaked with Hoppes #9+ using two dry patches to one Hoppes#9+. Usually, the second or third patch with Hoppes comes out clean. Last I scrape the breech face to remove anything that may have been pushed down the bore.. Ths only takes a few minutes and my rifles are ready for the next shoot.

Well as I said, cleaning a rifle has just never been that big of a chore for me. It is a little like gutting a deer after the kill. It needs to be done but shouldn't be an all day job.

One trick that my wife has taught me about cleaning black powder is NOT to do it inside the house.