driftrider

As of yesterday I' ve switched back to Pyrodex as I ran out of 2F T7. I had a box of Pyrodex pellets and two pounds of Pyrodex powder (one RS and one Select, I prefer Select). Yesterday I decided to shoot off the pellets as I typically prefer loose powder because it' s cheaper per shot and I have finer control over the charge.

Here are my observations with each powder.

Pyrodex, charge for charge, is definately not as " hot" as T7. I don' t have a chrony to take exact velocity measurements, but at 100 yards there was a noticable shift in the group of about 2-3" down when using Pyrodex. Not a tremendous amount, but the Pyrodex is definately slower.

The recoil of 100 grains of loose T7 2F with the same bullet isn' t really any greater than 2 pellets (100gr) of Pyrodex, but the recoil of the T7 is much sharper like a centerfire rifle, while the Pyrodex recoils with more of a hard shove similar to black powder.

With T7 and my Knight DISC I always had a great deal of blowback and fouling in the action. When I shoot I shoot a lot (30-40 shots typically), and after 20 the bolt will be hard to move and require cleaning. While there is still blowback with Pyrodex, I would say that it is less than half as bad as T7. I fired 40 shots yesterday with Pyrodex and the action still didn' t need cleaning for it to function smoothly.

Fouling in the bore with T7 is MUCH worse than Pyrodex. With T7 the bore needed to be swabbed with a spit patch after every shot or the next bullet would be difficult to load. T7 also formed the infamous " crud ring" after every shot, which meant that, if I didn' t spit patch, even if I could get the next bullet down the bore without mangleing it with the ramrod, it might still be impossible to seat it properly. The " crud ring" caould be so bad that if I ran my jag into it too far on the first stroke I might not be able to get the ramrod back out. I' ve had to disassemble the rifle to get a stuck ramrod out several times. On the other hand, Pyrodex seems to maintain a consistant level of fouling shot to shot and doesn' t require cleaning unless one had a leading or plastic buildup in the bore. With the Pyrodex, each shot wasn' t any more difficult than the last one to load and seat, and no swabbing was necessary between shots. In fact, swabbing the bore seemed to result in the next shot being a flyer most of the time.

In T7' s favor I will say that it smells much better than Pyrodex when fired. As most know, Pyrodex smoke and residue does have the sulfer " rotten egg" smell similar to but weaker than black powder. T7 doesn' t have any sulfer smell at all. I don' t really mind the smell of Pyrodex, so the lack of smell for T7 isn' t a major factor for me to choose it.

T7 is much easier to clean. With T7 I had gotten used to NOT going through the " bucket-of-hot-soapy-water" routine. To clean T7 I' d mostly just clean like it was smokeless powder, except instead of using nitro solvent I' d just dip the patch in a cup of hot soapy water, swab it out to get the fouling wet, brush a few times to break ub the hard stuff, dry patch then a couple patched soaked with CLP. Fast and easy. The Pyrodex, on the other hand, really needs the full treatment to get the rifle and bore clean.

Accuracy was just as good with both powders. Group sizes and consistancy are excellent with both powders as long as one doesn' t get carried away with T7 powder charges. 100 grains of T7 is TOO MUCH for a sabot that weights less than 300 grains, but 100 grains of Pyrodex shoots perfectly, at least in my rifle.

To summarize:

T7 produces greater velocities than an identical charge of Pyrodex.

T7 creates a sharper recoil than Pyrodex.

Pyrodex causes much less blowback and fouling in the action of my DISC rifle.

Pyrodex creates much less bore fouling than T7, and the Pyrodex fouling stays at a consistant level where T7 fouling builds up with each shot. Pyrodex does not create a " crud ring" where the bullet was seated on the powder charge like T7.

T7 smells better than Pyrodex. No sulfer smell.

T7 cleans much easier than Pyrodex, which needs a full service cleaning. T7 can be cleaned with spit patches and CLP.

Accuracy is comparable with each powder. Just don' t get too carried away with your charges of T7.

Hope this helps.

Mike

herman

Thanks underclocked,interesting reading.One fellow said that he tried #11 caps and the ring went a way,I tried it in my ruger and it uses #11 and it is there.One stated it was with all the powders but I have been shooting a long time with cleanshot,pyrodex powder and pellets and I have not noticed it with them.One said he just ran a spit patch down the barrel,I have done that a long time between shots using pyrodex but with the T7 I have to work the patch up and down to break the ring free,and like Mike said if it goes past the crude ring you have to take the breech plug out just to get the ram rod out. I don' t know why I keep trying the T7 guess I am trying to find out how great it is,some don' t seem to have any problems with it.I have a good supply of pyrodex and clean shot I can switch too before hunting season.

Underclocked

I like the strength of it, but as mentioned above it tends to recoil a bit more like a CF than a muzzleloader. Started with 3F loose and quickly reached the conclusion that granulation is just TOO hot. Using 2F seems a lot more forgiving to the big conicals I like to shoot. I' ve come awfully close to just throwing my hands in the air and going back to loose Pyrodex P.

My experience with other powders has been similar to yours. Sure there is fouling, but not like the ring of fouling from T7! And I' ve found no way to avoid it so just swab after every shot. Sometimes just a damp patch and sometimes a damp patch over a brush followed by a dry one or two. It' s a pain on the range but the powder is consistent. Some say putting a dab of bore butter on your sabot helps to keep that fouling soft. The only sabots I shoot are a royal pain to load and though I do add a touch of bb to the base, can' t say for sure that it helps anything.

Herman, as a little aside - don' t know if you have seen it or not - but I think Cecil Epp may be onto something as far as using 209 primers. His article on modding the Encore breech plug is interesting. http://www.prbullet.com/hornet.htm Seems kind of extreme. I think RWS, CCI, Federal, Rem, Win, yadda yadda ought to get together with the muzzleloader manufacturers and tool up for a " muzzleloader only" primer of some type that would incorporate the gains of the 209 without the attendent problems. I' m sure they are concerned about my opinion.

And, his improved Super Jags look good. May have to order a couple of those. http://www.prbullet.com/sj.htm

driftrider

Regarding specially formulated (read reduced power) 209 primers for muzzleloaders, I' ve ofter wondered the same thing. If they could reduce the charge to somewhere around that of a musket cap they would be perfect. Ease of handling combined with reduced fouling and possibly improved accuracy.

The Winchester 209 primers I' ve got right now say they are for muzzleloaders on the package, but I have no idea if that was done as a marketing ploy or if it really means there is a difference.

Hmm, there' s an idea for another topic...

Mike

herman

I am going to have to get me one of them to,I use the long T/C at the range because it lengths the ram rod been luck haven' t broken one yet.
I have thought about the 209 primers before,in my ruger I have tried up to 120 grs of clean shot,pyrodex, and only went to 110 grs of T-7, it uses the #11 caps and have never had a failure to fire off yet.My thoughts is that the 209 is more hype than need,and I think when using the #11 cap in a bolt action there is less fouling in the chamber so I think some of the blow back is coming from the primer,thats just my observation.
Think you are right about them getting together and making a primer just for muzzleloaders.I just picked up 2 boxes of the Win 209' s but it say for shotshells,maybe someone on here knows more about the ones Mike was talking about that said for muzzleloaders.

Martin Cougar

I just tried some T7 pellets last night for the 1st time. I had great results. Very little fouling - no " crud" ring that others had experienced.

I ran a patch between shots. And just to see if there was a lot of fouling - i would go ahead a load a 2nd shot w/o cleaning. It seated just fine w/o needing anymore force.

I think I' ll stick w/ them.

Forestore

I am a beginner at muzzloading and I just went and got set up tonight at my local gun shop and he rec. t7 so I am going too give it a try. I will try and post some results later. Thanks for those who relaid there experiences.

trac209

I don' t know, but maybe I' m doing something wrong or right.I can shoot 7or 8 shots between cleaning and the 1st bullet loads almost the same as the last and I really don' t notice a bad sulfer smell after the shot.To me pyrodex pellets are great and they don' t throw as much smoke,we all know how important that can be.

Underclocked

I think now the " T7 crud ring" may be in part due to the particular preservative we use in our bores. I have been told by a fellow that has done a LOT of shooting with T7, both loose and pelletized, that he has yet to encounter significant fouling or the crud ring. He uses Breakfree CLP as a bore preservative. Runs a couple of dry patches and fires 2 or 3 primers before each shooting session.

Would be curious to know what those of you that do get substantial fouling or the ring use as a preservative and what those of you that do not use in your bores.

herman

Underclocked maybe he has something there,I have used bore butter to coat my barrel (i run a patch down the barrel after cleaning and run a couple of patches down to get the excess out after it)then fire a couple of primers before I load it up to shoot.
Was reading on one of the board where a fellow said to use a lube with teflon in it I got some and tried it but haven' t tried the T-7 in it since,maybe I should try it again.I like the T7 for it cleaness but the crude ring was to much for me.
Everytime I read a post where they have no problem using the T7 I scratch my head and wonder why I get so much different results.
Alot of the post are using the pellets you think they are that much different than the T7 loose powder?
This might be a little off topic but have you checked to see just how much powder your encore actually burns?The reason I was wanting to ask in the pic I put in the SST 200 gr post, I knew my 50 shot good up to 120 grains of pyro so when I shot the first shot in the pic I used 125 grains at 100 the grass was really wet after raining all night and it was early in the morning too,when I fired there was little cinders of pyro scarreted in the wet grass so I figured my 50 would only burn 120 and less so the next shot I used 115 grs and there was no burning cinders in the grass,the next shot I did not swab between the shot and still came out with a .6 in group,so the 10 gr. difference didn' t make much difference.I think it was because I was at my max charge the barrel would burn.This make senses?