Help...T/C Breakage
 

New to me Thompson Blackdiamond (22 /12 barrel).
First range session second shot the primer retention spring breaks! Now I need help to determine if it was user error, defective/old, or just bad luck.

Particulars.
The rifle was a pawn shop purchase. It looked like new, may have not even been shot. Yes I know this model is a few years and that may have contributed to the failure.

90gr tripple7 FFFG
Hornady .430 300gr hp/xtp
green crush rib sabot
Winchester W209 primers
Pink tape on plug.
swabbed between shots with windex/alcohol mix. Then 3 dry patches. (could some alcohol have gotten into the breach plug?)
Approximately 5 minutes between shots.


Any Ideas on what happened or how to stop this from happening again?


Thanks, Mitch







Also what the hell is this piece? It came out with the primer and does not seem to be broken off or missing from anywhere.

who cares send it back to TC and le them fix that gun.Lifetime Warranty That extra peice looks asthough it broke off when the spring unwrapped. Call TC maybe tey will send a new part ASAP>

ouch that could have hurt like a sob had it hit you in the face.

I have a Black Diamond XR and am on my third breech plug nipple. Them springs just don't last forever. I am guessing the rifle not being new, was shot and then sat on a shelf for a long time. Maybe that spring was weak, who knows. I would just order the new nipple for it. Also those rifles can shoot #11 caps and Musket caps as well. I use the same 209 primer as you did. My last one has over two hundred shots on it.

mitchmtm1

Might check with Cayugad, he shoots a Black Diamond and for the primer retainer spring to break is not an unheard of problem. It has happened to him a few times.

Since the BD is a open breech - blow back can get back up the nipple farly easily and there really is nothing to hold the primer in place other the hammer spring. Plus using a W209, which creates a lot of heat and pressure on it's own adds to the problem. Another poit that adds to the problem is 3f Triple Seven - 3f ignites and reaches peak pressure so much faster than 2f that it will add to your blow back problem in that the bullet has not cleared nor has it progressed up the barrel far enough to increase the bore volume before 3f reaches peak pressure, especially with a 300 grain bullet. Thus the easy way to vent pressure is back through the breeh plug.

Couple of thoughts you might consider... Try some 2f powder, use a cooler primer. Here is a list compliled by Bridges..

Winchester 209ML ........................221 f.p.s.
Winchester 209 Triple Seven ML.....244 f.p.s.
Remington 209 Kleanbore ML ........318 f.p.s.
Std. Winchester No. 209A ..............336 f.p.s.
Std. Remington No. 209 .................341 f.p.s.
Cheddite No. 209 ...........................347 f.p.s.
Federal No. 209A ...........................381 f.p.s.
CCI 209M.....................................379 f.p.s.
Remington STS..............................338 f.p.s.


I 'think' Cayugad has gone to shooting #11 Mag caps from his BD to alleviate the whole problem.

You also can call TC and they will send you out some replace springs for your nipple...

Well the response from Thompson left a bit to be desired. Short and sweet.


The FFFg powder is to hot of a load in the Black Diamond. We recommend using Pyrodex powder.

Thank you,
Kathleen
Customer Service Rep.

I agree that T/C could have done a better job in their customer relations in this instance. I really like my black diamond with the short barrel but I have never used the 209 primer. I have been using 2f 777 and get my best accuracy with about 80 grains using a #11 cap. The replacement 209 nipple is probably less than 10 bucks.
With this type of open breech gun make sure to wear safety glasses.
Art

The Piece in question is called the anvil. This is normally inside of the primer and never seen. the anvil is what the firing pin of the gun smashes the cup into. it is this action that fires the primer.

In looking at your photos a peice of the side of your primer failed and let the pressure escape causing the damage to the spring. I would get another nipple and start over, does the nipple have the flash hole in it. if so the hole may have been enlarged allowing to much pressure to feed back to the primer, thus causing the failer.
Ken

I was not sure how much Triple Seven 2f I shot out of mine but I looked and did find where I shot it. It worked real good. I save my 3f for my Whites. In 99% of my rifles 2f works just fine.

I would get a new nipple as I do not think they sell the retaining springs. Lat time I ordered a couple was from Midsouth Shooters Supply I believe. You want to try to make your own spring if your handy, out of some wire. I never tried it but thought about it. Also I shoot a lot of Goex out of mine, and Pyrodex RS.

I had stepped this distance off. After I got my range finder, I learned this was only 88 yards. But this is shooting large conicals out of the Black Diamond XR. These No Excuses were the 460 grain and are real accurate as well.

You need to get rid of it and get something moe reliable. something like a good Hawkins:



The only changes I made was to replace the #11 nipple with a musket nipple. I shoot only black powder in it and have no troubles. I mold my own conical, R.E.A.L bullets and great results. My barrel is a 1 in 24" twist rate. I also shoot Barnes expanders. I love this gun.

You can find these sidelocks most everywhere and for a good price. I paid only $179.99 for this one on gun broker site. It shoots conicals very well and I have harvested a few nice deer with it.

Remember, "You get what you pay for!" :hit:

90gr 3f T7 is to hot for the black diamond? give me a break! even my traditions rates 3f much higher than that.

Maybe because I don't use T7, but when did they start rating it with Black Powder measures (F,FF,FFF?) Are there different levels of T7.

I still say quit using the make believe stuff and go with the real BP. You end up with good powder and never a question of ignition.

MD

Maybe if you knew more about what you might be talking about you could understand.

It is not the rating of the rifle that is the problem, you can shoot 120 grain of T7 in the barrel if you like. But again it is not the rating.... it the amount blow-bac pressure coming back through the nipple - that is what is casuing the problem. He could shoot a light 200 grain bullet and probably would not have a problem at all as the bullet would move easier and farther up the barrel increasing bore volume.

Most any of the older open breech type rifles were meant to shoot with a number 11 or a Musket cap. The advent of the 209 made a lot manufactures add that type of ignition to their list of accessories. Even the Bighorn, which is rated at 150 grains of T7 will blowback the primer and hammer when shooting a 209.

T7-3f which is much finer than 2f and thought to be 10% stronger than 2f so therefore 25% stronger than any of the Pyro's creates a problem in the older guns that try to use a 209 ignition.

T7-3f ignites and reaches peak pressure much faster than 2f in fact so fast the ability of the bore to increase the volume of gas it can contain, especially when shooting a 300 grain bullet is hampered. The pressure has to go someplace and the easiest place to go is back out the nipple - hence the blow-bac and even the pushing the hammer back to the firing position.

The TC Black Diamond is a very good old technology gun and will probably work just fine with 100 grains of T7-2f or any of the slower buring less pressure creating Pyros.

Hope this makes some sense to those that understand.

and I think Cayugad also suggested a new nipple - mitchmtm1 your current 209 nipple might be eroded. Have you looked at the hammer spring, BP residue can eat a spring fairly easily if it has not been cleaned well and it might be a bit weak.

I had the same problem in my White U-mag when shooting 100 grains of BH-209 from it. The primer blew out of the nipple, pushed the hammer back and reputered the primer- i found the anvil on the floor of the breech.

So if I ( or anyone else) were to load up 90gr 3f T7 in a black diamond, we'd all expect the same thing to happen? My traditions is rated for 130gr T7 loose and it to uses that same primer spring. Should i expect the same thing to happen on that rifle?

MountainDevil54

Depends on which tradition it might be and what the bolt or hammer design might be? But if you shoot t7-3f and a 300 grain bullet in an older falling hammer style gun you could expect excessive blow-bac... It is simple math vs older designed guns.... Remember these guns were being built before T7 even made it on the market.

The question is do you understand why T7-3f builds a higher pressure quicker than 2f in a given volume space?

I can get the same thing in my White with a heavy bullet and T7-3f or even the Remington with a Remington Conversion - so are those guns bad also?

One further point if you go back and read Cayugad's post you would find that the retaining spring is a concern with the BD. Even when I bought my CVA Firebold, CVA recommended purchasing a 5 pack of retaining springs for the nipple. it can be a problem in older guns...

Yep that was me out thinking myself. I was thinking that in a short of barrel the faster powder would give me better velocity. Stupid bp rookie.



Everything looks like new on the rifle (except the nipple now) and the spring is in perfect condition.




Thanks everyone for the help and info.

Mitch

mitchmtm1

The thought is/was correct... and if you reduce your projectile to 240/250 grains or even 200 - it might serve you really well.

Very Good!

I can not remember what that nipple really looks like... I know the #11 and Musket Nipple for the BD were both what TC calls a flame thrower nipple, but I do not remember if the 209 has a long instert...

The nipple is/should be OK you just have to replace the retainer spring - correct?

I have extra CVA springs that might work, but you should be able to get some from TC...

Do you have a replacement spring?

I did a little edit work on your picture and as I look at it - the nipple is OK but the spring needs to be replaced.

mike

Yep the nipple is perfect it shined up really well...but I don't think that tc sells just the springs. You have to buy a new primer adapter.



https://secure.tcarms.com//store/209...t-no-7805.html

mitchmtm1

Do me a favor if you can... call TC - customer support and tell them that you have a nipple with a broken retainer spring and ask them if they can send you a couple. Remember they have a life time warranty on thier guns they might just send you the rings... Again call them on the phone if you can

603-332-2333

let me know...

I think I would want the whole 209 nipple to be new after that episode.

I had one of those that broke becaused it cyrstalized in my System One they are similar to a nipple. I just switched it out as I had spares.

My experience with 3f has been that you lose the expected velocity advantage when you move to the heavier bullets...at least in my guns over my chrono. My hypothesis is that the bullet takes long enough to get out of the barrel that you burn all the powder anyways.

Of course, all the barrels I have tested are 26in. I have not tested my brush guns as I do not feel the small velocity difference makes it worth screwing with a second powder (I often carry 2 guns afield) when it's a short range proposition anyways.

Breech plug design improvements have certainly made the newer designs more user friendly.

Probably not needed UC, popping the retainer spring is not uncommon thing.

The nipple itself is very strong - In this case the blow-bac pressure - pushed the primer back to the point it was able to get pregnant enough that a side blew out while still partially in the nipple and stretching the retainer spring to the point of distortion. Actually if you you took the time and had the right tools - you could re-bend the spring to the right diameter and re-install it.