150 grains of powder?
 

how many of you guys use 150 grain mag loads or feel that they are unnecessary? I will soon have an encore endeavor arriving and was wondering if its worth using 150 (3 50 gr. 777 pellets)...or if any of you have a load combo that you like in the encore could you please share what they are thanks!

I only used it once in my life. A buddy of mine said MLs didn't kick :s4: For most people's purpose, 150g is not needed. Very few MLs are the most accurate at that high of a charge anyway.

never had a rifle that shot W-A-S with max loads.

I have NEVER gotten a rifle to maintain max accuracy with bullets under 300 grains. The reduced velocity attained with 300+grn bullets seems to help, I shoot the 325gr FTX in my Omega at max charge (135gr 777) and it is max accuracy (1" or a bit under) for that gun.

The same gun can only shoot the 200SW with 110gr powder, groups blow up even with 115gr.

FWIW I have a buddy who can't get over 85gr and keep groups under 1.5" with an Encore.

I have heard of people claim they get great groups with 240-250gr bullets at full charge, but never seen it with my own eyes.

I am always curious if some barrels just like a particular velocity range or something, irrespective of powder charge. The 200grSW velocity for the above load is 2050 fps while the 325grFTX load is 1950fps. All other bullets I have shot in this gun and gotten to good groups were between 1900 and 2050 fps.

I just got a tc encore magnum, and used three 50 grain pryonex "cubes" and a 200 grain bullet, sited it in a 100 yards, hitting bullseyes with it after 4 shots. im new to muzzleloading so I went by the manuals instructions, some recoil, but a nice shooter, cant wait to see how it does in the woods.

sorry for my lack ML knowledge...but what is W-A-S?

worth a crap

lol ok so not really ML terms then...:bash:

You will be hard pressed to burn all that powder in a short tube using lighter projectiles. The heavier the slug the more inertia is needed to move it up the tube, therefore enableing the powder a longer time to consume in a shorter barrel. If your looking for speed and less drop, opt for a 45cal with a 400 gr slug. The 45's tend to be inherantly more accurate then 50's, and will fair much better at longer ranges in respect to trajectory and shooter error in judging distance. One consideration that is paramont is to match the slug to the tubes rate of twist, and not to exceed veloscities that will cause the bullet to strip the rifling causing fliers and leading of your barrel.

The examples given so far have been sabots, so leading won't be an issue. As a corollary I also found that non-jacketed bullet have a ceiling around 1800-2000fps above which they deform enough not to shoot well regardless of other factors.

IMHO the "inherent accuracy" of .45s vs .50s is urban legend. I read that a lot on centerfire forums too, like non-belted cases or short mags are more inherently accurate but then nobody can explain why the 300WM holds its own agains all ballistically equivalent chamberings of so-called more inherently accurate cartridges.

Every .50 I've owned has shot 1" or so with proper load development.

I will buy that it is easier to develop accurate loads with .357 or .40 bullets in a .45 as there is less plastic between the bullet and barrel to introduce variances. Of course I've had phenominal accuracy with .40 bullets in the .50 and never seen anybody post significantly smaller groups...maybe I don't know enough people shooting .45s...

Regarding trajectory, I'll bet on a 200SW vs a 400gr conical out of a .45 in terms of drop. IMHO at longer ranges guesswork should not be part of the equation, you either have a range finder and know the range or should not be shooting. I was stupid enough to ignore this rule of mine one time last year when I knew better and of course I missed. But I could have made a bad shot instead so I should not have taken it.

Iuse a 20 grain bullet and 110 grain load of BH209 probably in the 2000 fps range out the barrel. I will shoot 1-2 inch 100 yards all day w/you. IAll the gents I read om here and these are pros as well as mm not one of the guys shoots 150 mag/max charge. If anything, they will tell you to shoot smaller or slowed up loads for accuracy.

Spaniel is the 325gr FTX a Hornady rifle bullet (.458 45 CAL 325 GR FTX)? What sabot do you use?

There are a few things that enter into how much powder you can burn. The kind and grade are at the top of the list. It is possible to tell by the velocity, when you quit gaining then you are blowing unburned powder out the barrel. The practical point of efficiency with most subs [which are a constant burning rate powder] is around 110 to 120 gr. You can get to the point if you push it far enough the the weight of the unburned powder adds to the pressure and recoil and reduces the velocity.
The only sub I know of that is progressive burning is Blackhorn and since the powder burns faster as the pressure increases you should stay with the advertised 120 gr limit unless you can do some pressure testing your self.

My elk load uses 90 gr of BH 209! Killed one this year and last year with that load.

NO, you don't need 150 gr of any powder. If I used that much, I would be doing two things: waisting money and developing a bigger flinch. I would wager 95% of all shooters will shoot more accurately with 100 gr than 150 grains IN THE FIELD.

Anyone who says you NEED more than 100 gr of black powder equivalent to kill ANY contiental US game has taken one too many anabolic steroids. Heard of the 45-70? 45 caliber with 70 gr of blackpowder. How many buffalo died to the caliber?

Certain long bullets may require higher charges (higher velocity) for better accuracy, but for the most part you should be able to find an accurate load in the 90-110 gr range.

Why would you subject your shoulder to the extra jar and your pocketbook to the extra cost?

I'll just reiterate what everyone else in here has already said. Its just not needed. I've a CVA Wolf that likes 90 gr. American pioneer with a 245 gr. TC Cheap Shot, a traditions buckmaster that likes 100 gr of pyrodex pellets with a 250 gr XTP and a White mountain carbine that likes 95 gr. pyrodex with a 385gr. buffalo bullet. The first and third load have both dropped big deer and I'm gonna be on the second to do the same. Although I am thinking of going heavier.

ok i see what you guys are saying...any of you guys use the 777 magnum loads and does anyone have an idea on how much 2 pellets of the mag loads are equivalent to in loose powder?

I have shot magnum loads. Accuracy was acceptable. But normally I got better accuracy cutting the load down to around 100 grains. If I were hunting dangerous game, I guess I would want a large bullet with good expansion and as much powder behind it as possible.

Still we have hunting reports coming in where people shot elk with 90 grains of powder and found the projectile on the other side of the entrance wound, just under the hide.

Before the entire concept of magnum loads came about, we were happy shooting 70-100 grains of powder and hunting the same animals they hunt today with magnum charges.

So if your rifle shoots magnum charges accurate, and you don't mind the cost or recoil, then by all means shoot that. Actually a lot of us come close to magnum charges when we shoot 110-120 grains of loose powder. But again, shoot what the rifle tells you to shoot. I'd rather place my bullet through the heart then pound by bullet through a non lethal area.

I have an inline that shoots 70 grains and a 460 grain conical bullet. To me this is about a perfect deer hunting load where I hunt. I am not under gunned, and I know this will do the job. But I have rifles that will shoot magnum loads and depending on what I was facing, they might be an excellent choice.

Loose powder is considered to be about 15% stronger than the regular pellets. Magnum pellets bring it up between 10-15%, so bottom line is compare loose 777 one to one with magnum pellets.

Yes, same as in the leverrevolution ammo. Rumor is the lead is harder than the SST/SW and they may not expand as well but I'm trying them for a year to test in real life. I use the orange MMP sabot ordered online. Groups well at 135gr777, have shot out to 500yds with good groups.

I'm not as worried about expansion as much with a .458" 325gr bullet as I am with a 200gr .40 bullet. That's a big, wide bullet making a hole. Informed opinion to come in a couple months.

I never use more than 100 grains of anything 777 , Pyro or BH . I don't care if my Muzzy is a magnum or not . After shooting 100 grains of pyrodex in the winter and seeing Black powder all over the snow with my encore ( 26''' barrel ) i dropped my load to 90 and had nothing on the snow and that was with a 300 grain bullet . I bet most of the powder over 90 grains is going out un- burned with 26'' barrels and anything over 110 grains with 28'' barrels . IMO.

has anyone ever shot the 2 side by side?

I believe the magnum 777 pellets are roughly equal to 3 of the regular 777 pellets. In terms of loose powder, that would make it equal to about 120 - 130 grains of loose 777, if I'm not mistaken. Though it does make a difference if you are shooting FFG or FFFG powder. But for the life of me, I can't see the need for anything more than 100 - 110 grains of powder. I've gotten some of my best groups with 70 grains of 777, and my hunting load is usually around 90 grains.

My first BP deer several years ago was shot at 100 yards with 80 grains 777 and a "puny" 200 grain bullet - it dropped as if struck by the hammer of Thor.....

I have found that 150 grns opens my groups significantly
And for the game that I hunt here in the south I stay between 80 - 90 grains with 200 - 250 grn bulletts.
For larger game I would most likely go 100 - 110 and heavier bulletts or whatever powder charge was correct for my bullett choice.
Plus,I am not a fan of heavy recoil.

Heres my experience with 150g of trip 7....It will be consistent one minute and throw off the next.....Then check out the 100g charge the CVA Accura loved it!


Check this out......http://huntingnet.com/forum/black-po...-good-bad.html

Here is the quote from the 777 website:

The newest entry in muzzleloading from Hodgdon Powder Company is the Triple Seven Magnum Pellets. With two Triple Seven Magnums you can acheive an additional 200-250 fps. In 26" in-line barrels this will normally result in muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 fps.

That means that it brings up the velocity from about 1750-1800 fps to 2000. That is at most a 15% increase. So 2 magnum pellets should be equal to about 110 to 115 gr of blackpowder equivalent. That is also what 100 gr of 777 loose is capable of .

I don't think there is animal on this continent that could stand up to that load - at least not with a decently placed shot.

with that load and distance, the animal would have enough time to stick its tongue out at you, flip you the bird and run away before the bullet got there LOL j/k

If my guesstimating of the velocity is close then the drop when sighted in for 100yds would be 25 inches and the time to impact would be .5 of a second.
If the animal is standing still and relaxed it won't take more than one step in that time, the amount of drop might give some people hiccups. Lee

Just for comparison my favorite load with the 200gr Lehigh and 140 gr of BH has a flight time of .3 of a second and sighted in at 100yd has a drop of 7.5 inches.
The big advantage is that I sight in for 2.5 inches high at 100yds which puts my dead on at 170 and only 3 inches drop at 200.
I was surprised that there was not more difference in the flight time, of course the heavy bullet holds its velocity better even though it starts a lot slower. Lee

Just to add my $.02 worth....I'm not that much of a BP shooter, although I do own three of them. My go-to deer rifle in the "any muzzleloader" season here in PA is my CVA Wolf shooting two 50 gr. Pyrodex pills under 245 gr. Powerbelts. Yeah, I've heard a lot of flack about the Powerbelts, but they seem to work good for me. Shoot acceptable, and knock the snot out of a whitetail. But back to my main point....the recoil with that particular gun and load is all I want. I'm not even gonna consider the 150 max charge, thank you...

In my centrefire reloading bible the most accurate load is never the max. load given. It would stand to reason that the same holds true for MZ. Shoot over snow and look at all the unburned powder laying on the snow in front of you afterwards. No sense in throwing money away and beating yourself up just because you can. The deer won't be any deader.

Gearheart
I have reloaded since 1965 and have found several max loads that shot the best but with center fires its not the norm. I really don't relate that to muzzleloading. Because of the original CVA's firecracker barrels and the lawsuits that resulted the safety factor insisted on by the powder and arms companies is out of sight. There for unless you do your own pressure testing and enough information to do your own figures on your guns how do you know what maximum is?
It is very difficult even for those of us that do have the right equipment because of the arms co. not being willing to furnish information on just what the breach plug design will hold up to. Lee

My magnum loads throws a 295 gr sabot 100 yrds with consistency and amazing accuracy. You never know what and how far away something you want to shoot will step in front of you. The only way to shoot with accuracy when shooting a heavier sabot is to magnum charge it (3 50 grn 777's). You could drop a mature buck at 100 plus yrds with a magnum charge shooting anything larger and heavier than a powerbelt 295. I used to shoot n the 300's but found the sweet spot with a magnum charge and 295 powerbelt sabots...perfect grouping at 100 yrds, and the hollow points will smack down any whitetail out there.

Glad that has worked well for you! But the truth is that the accuracy you speak of is for your gun only. All guns don't have the best accuracy at max loads. And there are plenty of accurate loads that don't use 150 gr in most guns. Also, just to be clear on what we are talking about, powerbelts are not considered sabots. They are basically an undersized full bore, pure lead conical.

There are a ton of reports out there of failures when you push a powerbelt that hard. At 25 yards, that bullet going that fast will come apart if it strikes anything substantial. Fact is would actually get better penetration/terminal performance from that bullet at less than 100 yards with lower powder charges.

So, IMO you have a great 200 yard combo! But since the vast majority of shots I take are less than 100 yards, and I have never taken a 200 yard shot with a muzzy, I will stay with lower charges. This combo is obviously right for you, but if I had that load in my gun with a buck of the woods stepped out at 20 yards, I would have a nagging worry in the back of my mind.

I tried 150 grains and it kicked the crap out of me not to mention the gun didn't shoot very well with it. Seemed like the bullet was hitting the paper sideways the way it was ripping it. I switched down to 100 grains and like it much better.

The manufacturers do what sells guns. The word "Magnum" sells guns, as do their advertized velocities. We've all seen the T/C commercial for the BDC reticle scope, quoting a 3 pellet load and 200 yd range. They're just doing what will sell more guns. That's how they make money.

I've never shot a ML over 100 yds at game. With my Genesis, and current 350 gr FPB over 100 gr loose pyrodex, I can shoot to 125-150 if need be, and that's all I need for my hunting. One day I'll try BH 209 but not to add range, I like the notion of easier cleanup.

I shot 150 grains of 777 pellets in my 1st ML which was an Optima using 348 grain Powerbelts about 5 years ago and they were all over the place. I now know that was too much for PBs but I no longer use them and shoot an Omega with 2 pyrodex pellets and/or 90 grains RS with SWs but may try 300 grain Barnes Expanders.

It is a waste of powder in my experience. My standard load is 80 grns of 777 all my rifles.

I've SWITCHED! I talked to MountianDevil54 and he talked me into using lose Powder insted of the 150gr's (3) Pyrodox Pellets. I must say My Accuracy has increased out of My ACCURA's. Being a BIG guy, 6'6" and 240lbs I have always assumed the Bigger the Load the Better, well I hate to admit it but I was wrong! Using 110gr's of RS and a 240gr XTP with 777 Primers My groups have tightened up! And LESS RECOIL, no more black and blue armpit from the 150gr load.
I should have put 2 and 2 togeather as being a Charter Life Member of the IBO (International Bowhunting Organazation) and shooting bow in the Triple Crown. My Buddy owned a pro shop (BOW) and he was also a shooter in the IBO we used to think that shooting the heaviest Bow weight and arrow combination allowed by the IBO for it's shoots would give us an ADVANTAGE over the other shooters that could'nt handle this MAX WEIGHT ( 80lb Max Bow Weight X 5Gr. Per Pound for Arrow Weight) = a 80 Lb Bow (Pull-Weight) and a 400Gr. Arrow, total weight for (Arrow-Tip-Insert)
Boy were we wrong! Not only was it tough to hold on the targets with this 80lb Bow weight, our accuracy suffered a little as the shoot went on.
Well we finally realized that the guy's that were shooting say 60Lb Bow weight and a 300gr arrow-5gr per pound of Bow Weight were shooting just as FAST as we were with the 80lb Bow's! or the guy's with the 70Lb Bow's with 350Gr arrows.
So we dropped our Bow weight, lightened our arrow weight and we we still shooting just as fast but we did'nt suffer pulling back the 80lbs and our accuracy was better and our arms did'nt hurt after a shoot.
So Bigger is not always better! Your no less of a man if you dont shoot 150 gr's of Black Powder, I'll be the First and probably not the last to admit it, too bad it took me so long to let my accuracy overcome my EGO, and the Game will be just as dead with less powder, just as our arrows hit the 10 ring the same as they did with the heaiver Bow Weight.
Ron (breechplug)