slee

I' m just getting back into muzzleloading in preparation for the upcoming elk and deer season, and am experimenting with loads for my .54cal T/C Renegade. I was at the range the other day, and I tried some Clear Shot with good results. I don' t remember, but I think it was fffG. I know fffG powder burns faster causing higher pressures, and you typically use ffG in long guns for a slower burn and lower, more consistent pressures. I' m gonna buy some Triple 7 and some Clear Shot next week, and wanted to know what size to buy it in, or if it really matters. Also, will I need to reduce my charge compared to Pyrodex RS(normally use 100gr)? Any other pertinent info that will save me some time would be greatly appreciated.

eldeguello

IF you find some Clear Shot (no longer made!!!), buy fffG! Clear Shot is so weak it produces velocities about 400 to 500 FPS less than a like quantity of black powder or Pyrodex! It is too slow, even in fffG, for round ball shooting!! I have chronographed it in several different guns ranging in caliber from .45 to .58, and found that I had to load about 50% more of it in all guns to get withing 200 FPS of what BP will do with the same bullets in these rifles. Its' ONLY advantage is that it is virtually noncorrosive, and can be cleaned out of your gun a lot easier than BP or Pyrodex. I wish GOEX had gotten the ballistic characteristics of this powder correct. If they had, I would use it exclusively (if it was still available!!)

slee

Are you thinking of CleanShot or Clear Shot? I' m pretty sure I can buy Goex Clear Shot all day long around here, but Clean Shot is no longer in business. I did like the way the fffG Clear Shot grouped my 425gr. maxi rounds. But I' ve heard several complaints of hangfires in sidelocks with both Clear Shot and Triple 7, so I' m researching powders as much as possible before I buy several different types. I had a couple of hangfires the other day, but it was because I didn' t clean under the nipple well enough, and the Clear Shot left a crust over it. I' ve still got almost 2# of Pyrodex RS, but really want something cleaner if I can get good results. Heck, I' m gonna try some regular old BP the next time out too. It' s usually extremely wet in WA during the muzzleloader season, so that' s one of the reasons I was looking at the Triple 7 and Clear Shot. I' ve had bad experiences with Pyrodex in the rain. I' m really open to suggestions at this point. I' m gonna call T/C this week to get their load suggestions for the Renegade, and test out a bunch in the next week or so.

Mark whiz

eldeguello is exactly right............ The Goex ClearShot is VERY anemic - even the 3fg version will barely launch .44cal round balls out of my revolover.........and forget trying it in the rifle. If you try the Triple 7 - you will notice a BIG difference in power....approximately a 30% difference compared to ClearShot.

For the big Maxi' s you' re talking about shooting, I would start my load workup at 60 or 65gr of 3fg Triple 7 and go up from there until you' re happy. I think you' ll find that the 777 will offer less of a fouling problem than the ClearShot. I' ve found that ClearShot leaves just as much fouling as regular Goex BP, it' s just easier to clean out - but 777 seems to leave a little less total fouling, but the fouling it does leave can get a little " crusty" if you leave it too long without a wipe.

AS far as whether to use the 2fg or 3fg - with 777, I doubt it will matter too much in your .54cal. There is very little difference in velocity between the two with identical bullets - usually 50fps or less (according to Hodgdon' s data). I have found that my .50cal in-line does like the 3fg when using sabot bullets of 350gr or more - but I' m not sure how this will translate to a .54cal shooting conicals. I will say this much, if you fire a 400+gr bullet with 90gr or more of 3fg 777 - HOLD ON, cause it is gonna kick like a mule! Triple 7 is just that hot. And remember, if using 777, to take into account your gun' s maximum rated powder load. If the max is 100gr of BP - then your max charge of 777 will be 85 to 90gr.

BTW.... ClearShot is currently out of manufacture. Goex had an " anomaly" in the plant that was making it - that plant no longer exists . I talked to a Goex Representative a few weeks ago at the NRA Convention and they are planning on producing it again, it just ain' t happening yet. IMHO, it' s return may rest squarely on the popularity 777 gains or doesn' t gain.
CleanShot is " Kinda" out of business. They have been resurrected under the name American Pioneer Powder - same stuff, but a new name........plus they offer powder " sticks" instead of " pellets" to keep Hodgdon off of their backs. Personally, I like CleanShot loose powder for in-lines.......it is cleaner than any other powder and only about 5% less powerful. But it is cut into BIG granules, making it tough to ignite in sidelocks - and it tends to attract moisture badly. A fresh can of powder can turn BAD literally overnight.

cayugad

I have an old T/C .54 caliber Renegade, and it shoots 80 grains of " CLEAN SHOT," and a round ball, and a .015 patch excellent. Very tight groups with it. The Clean Shot I use is ffg in size. My Renegade also shoots 85 grains of Pyrodex Select with a round ball excellent. The Pyrodex Select is RS size. When I used to shoot straight black powder I shot 75 grains of it with great results. I have never went to the fffg size powder because I have such great luck with the ffg I figure, why change a good thing. I keep the Pyrodex P for the revolver. When I went off and went Elk hunting, I loaded 110 grains of Pyrodex RS and a 426 grain Buffalo Bullet. It kicked a little bit, but was accurate out to 100 yards off a good rest. I wish I could brag and tell you how well it took an elk, but I never had the chance. For whitetail deer, I shoot round ball or 300 grain hand casted conical. I bought the mold from LEE Bullet mold company. They shoot excellent, and I can tell you they really knock a whitetail off their feet. Good luck elk hunting. I will be watching for your post of how well the load you picked, worked....

slee

Thanks for the correction guys. I wasn' t aware of that " anomoly" . I just knew that I' d seen it in a couple of different stores in the area over the last month or so. I' d better tell my partner to try some of the Triple 7 when we go shoot next time. He' s wanting to sell his Black Diamond because he can' t get a decent group with any Clear Shot load combo so far, and he thinks it' s the barrel. One of the guys I' m going shooting with in the next week or so has some Triple 7 that I' m gonna try. The max charge for the Renegade is 120gr. of BP, so I' ll start at 70gr and see what happens. I don' t know if his is the 2f or 3f variety. As far as ease of ignition, is there a difference between the 2 sizes for sidelocks? I would think the 3f would probably pack tighter and ignite a little better. Again, thanks for any suggestions and info.

RKenSprac

I 3fg in everything from my cap and ball revolver to my .54 great plains hunter, and think it works great, plus by shooting the 3fg in my rifles I don' t have to have a seperate stash for my revolver. Typically I keep my loads for my rifles 5% to 10% under the max recommended load, because as you pointed out 3fg will create higher pressures.

I took my .54 to the range this weekend and tried some 3fg triple 7, I was very pleased. I' ve got to spent a bit more time working a my load but I was impressed by both velocity and fouling (or lack thereof). BTW don' t think you don' t have to clean your gun after shooting T7. but I was able to load and fire with no between shot cleaning. Something I haven' t been able to do with black powder and Pyrodex. When I cleaned my guns there was still a noticable amount of fouling.

From a budget standpoint, since you' ll be shooting less 3fg than 2fg for the same velocity you' ll get a few more shots per pound with 3fg. Not enough to make a difference unless you' re burning through lots of powder.

Mark whiz

slee,

you will probably do well by trying the 3fg in your Renegade. It is cut VERY fine - it literally is powder, not granules..............in looks it appears similar to 4fg BP. Which means you need to be careful when you measure 777. Do Not compress it any in your powder measure - pour the powder freely into the measure, cut it off at the top & pour it in.........don' t tap or thump the measure to try to get it to settle. Doing so could easily allow you to pour in up to 5gr more powder than you want.

I have found that you don' t need to reduce your load any between 2fg & 3fg 777. Both are cut small & there is only that 50fps difference between them. The only difference I saw (or felt) between identical charges of the two cuts is that group sizes shrunk with big bullets when going to 3fg. And seeing now what the max charge is for your gun - I' d cut the 777 off at 100gr.............which is all your shoulder would want to fire anyway.

Before your buddy sells that Black Diamond, have him scrubb it down REAL good with a bore brush & BP solvent - the CVA Sabot solvent would be good. Then try some 300gr sabots like the Hornady XTP Mags over 80gr of 777 - I think he' ll see a big improvement. If not, scrubb down the bore again and shoot 2 or 3 dozen patched round balls out of it with 70gr of 777. Give it another scrub & try the XTPs & 777 again. If it won' t shoot then, it might be time to consider another shootin' iron (BTW...make sure all is well with the sites, scope, mounts, etc as well).

Good Shootin'

slee

I talked to Thompson Center this morning about recommended loads for the Black Diamond and my Renegade. They haven' t tested loads extensively enough to recommend any with Triple 7, but gave me some loads with Pyrodex and BP. The guy didn' t think I would want to use 3f in a .54cal. He didn' t say why, just that I should probably stick with 2f.

I then called Hodgdon to get recommendations for the guns based on bullet weight. He gave me a starting range of 80-90 grains of Triple 7 with a 250gr bullet, and 70-90 grains with a 320gr Maxi in the .50cal. For my .54 Renegade, he thought I should start at 60-70 grains with my 425gr Maxi ball. I' ve got a feeling it' ll be closer to the 80-90gr. mark before me and my gun are satisfied. I didn' t ask him what he thought about the 2f vs. 3f on the phone, but I did e-mail them about it. If they haven' t gotten back by lunch tomorrow, I' ll call them again. From what I' ve seen and heard so far, it shouldn' t really matter which I use. I did look over the data they have online, and I see what y' all were saying about the weak velocity of Clear Shot. No way I' m loading that stuff for elk. Thanks for all the info guys.

Rodsmith

CLEAN SHOT is very much still in the powder biz. The loose powder is still being produced and marketed under the CLEAN SHOT name while the company had to start up a new " division" per say to manufactur the sticks as a result of the Hodgdon law suit. I use the clean shot with the same loads that I had used the pyrodex select with very good results (some minor tinkering required) and the clean up is a pleasure compared to the pyrodex. I have a few buddies who were shooting the 777 and having a hell of a time with barrel fouling so I have stuck with what I know. BTW go to www.cleanshot.com to find the dealer nearest you. If ya cant find it tell your local shop to start carrying it!