150 Yard Question
 

I've done some shooting the past couple days and shot out to 150 yards my last few shots. My groups at 100 are pretty good, but once I go out to 150 I'm vertically all over. One second I'm 3" above the target, next time I'm on target and then I'm 3" below the target. Are my expectations too high? Does anyone have any suggestions? I want to make 150 my maximum shot, but am not too confident in it right now. Oh yeah, my load is a 250 gr. shockwave, 777 3F powder and 777 primers. Any help is appreciated.

Other then how you approach the rifle and prepare it.. that could cause the bullets to do what you describe. I know when I shot out to 150 yards with the same bullet, I shot at a paper plate. And you described my group pretty much. I was just happy I hit the plate. And since I never shoot that far, I really did not try to improve it.

Really concentrate on your breathing, trigger pull and follow through.

What kind of groups are you getting at 100yds?

Try shooting to 150 with a clean bore? Maybe you did? But i know ive experienced odd happening with a dirty barrel? Just a thought

I think that depends on what "on target" means Troutman. If you're talking about your exact point of aim, and shots are hitting within three inches of your point of aim at 150 yards, I would say you're good-to-go for hunting. Sure, you'd rather be shooting two-inch groups at 150. But if you're careful and selective with your shots a deer will never know it was killed with a six-inch grouping load rather than a two-inch load.

Shooting groups
 

Shooting groups is not very important to me with an MZ. I basically consider a MZ as a single shot rifle, so I rarely concern myself with more than one shot.

Shooting groups is fun, but it is basically of no importance in a hunting situation.

All I concern myself with is how close to my POA am I hitting with the first shot out of a clean barrel.

IF you are hitting within 3 inches of POA at 150 yards and your limit on range is 150 yards, then what is the problem??

I would not be satisfied with that out of my Knight LRH. But I would be tickled with that out of my Lyman FL. So I guess you have to make your own judgements. However I would not make any judgements as to where the follow up shots go out of a dirty barrel. Unless you hunt with a dirty barrel. And I have not done that for 25 years. Tom.

There are a number of possibilities, one is wad pressure if you get a difference the pressure you have seated the bullet with then the longer the range the more it will show. Try using a range rod with a stop on it that you can set for your load so that all bullets are seated at the same depth and measure your powder carefully.
The other thing is your powder I have had trouble with 777 I believe it gathers moisture as some times an older can becomes erratic especially if it is not kept sealed well. Lee

Thanks for the input guys. There's def. some good things to think about. I guess all I can do is practice and practice some more. My group at 100 yards today was about an inch. I've been swabbing in between each shot so I feel my barrel is in good shape before the next shot. The deer won't know the difference as long as it's on the ground AND most shots generally occur between 0-100 yards. Since we're talking about practice I guess I should bring up the famous Allen Iverson quote..."Practice, we're talkin' bout practice". Have a good one!

Troutman10

I guess my first question is what the velocity of your load might be @ 150 yards - if it has slowed to the point that it looses stabilization you will get exactly what you are describing. Might look good at a 100 but falls to pieces down range.

So I guess I would ask this..

1. What is the volume of the T7 you are shooting?
2. What rifle are you shooting?
3. Which sabot are you shooting?

Is your group at 100 strung verticaly? Also do you consistantly grip the forend of your rifle when shooting? With any gun that has a fair amount of recoil the hold down force of your forward hand can cause the vertical stringing. Say you grip it tight one shot and then loose the next and then the third shot you just rest the forend on the bag. That could very well cause a fair amount of vertical stringing. Ive had that problem with my slug gun shooting at 200 yards. First shot holding the forend tightly would be 12 inches low the second shot not holding the forend hit the bullseye.

IMO swabbing between shots is good. However it is not the same as shooting from a cold clean barrel.

Lots of other good advice also. Seating pressure is probably the one that is the most important. And as far as T7 is concerned. I agree completely. It's hygroscopic properties are too erratic for me. I will no longer shoot the stuff. I have went back to straight 3F Black Powder. The BH209 stuff may be great, but it is just too expensive for me. And there is no reason for it to be that expensive. Tom.

Honestly, it sounds mostly like shooter-induced error. It is hard to imagine the load you describe being so slow that you can get velocity-induced stringing just going from 100 to 150 yds. Maybe at 250 or 300, but not 150.

Do you have much experience shooting that for with centerfire or anything?

If we take that out of the equation, vertical stringing is usually caused by variations in velocity.
1) Do you consistently tap your powder and measure it exactly the same each time?
2) Do you try to apply even pressure each time you seat a bullet?
3)Is the sabot snug, not loose or hammer-down tight?

Good luck

The load that I was using is 110 gr. of 777 3F, a 250 grain shockwave with black sabot and a 777 primer. I'm going to try this again and focus on a few of the things you guys said. I'll report back. Thanks for the help.

I would say that either you're getting significant velocity variations shot-to-shot, or it's a most likely a breathing problem. If you're not carefully measuring your powder, or your seating pressure is very inconsistant, you could see velocity spreads and vertical stringing. If you load the rifle well, then breathing is the next potential cause I'd look at if I were coaching you. If you are supporting the rifle with your shoulder, then shooting at different times during your natural breath cycle can cause vertical stringing. To fix this you need to breath naturally, then after your last natural exhalation you fire during your natural respiratory pause. Don't hold your breath beyond when you're body naturally wants to breath or you'll harm your shot, too. Just get in the habit of timing the shot with the normal pause between breaths, if you don't get the shot off in the pause, go ahead and breath and try for the next one. If you do it right, and don't force it, it'll help out if that's the problem.

Mike

While shooter error is always a possibility, people that shoot inch groups at 100 don't usually throw them around at 150 so I doubt that's a problem, a lot of shooters that usually shot cartridge guns will measure the powder carefully and ram the load down with a bit difference in ramming force there for seating pressure each time. Usually a shooter that's getting an inch group at 100yds will have more trouble with the wind moving the bullet horizontally than with vertical stringing. Also if the sabot did not fit well there would not be any inch groups at a 100yds. Shooting before the gun is cooled off or seating pressure would be the things I would look at first. Lee

I know this is going to sound strange but it happened to me so I know it is a possibility. I was shooting 777 with some 777primers. Beyond a 100 yards it started to string vertically. I had 6 shots in a vertical line. I switched back to Federal primers and the vertical stringing stopped. I don't have an explanation but with muzzle loaders I've learned to never rule anything out even if it sounds ridiculous. Try a different primer and try to seat the bullet the same.. Just a thought

I have also shot verticly strung groups at 100yds. Is your ML scoped? I use a peep and I figured that my vertical stringing was shooter error. I am happy to keep a 2" MOA @ 100yds with a peep. If my ML was scoped I would expect better grouping. At 150yds, I hold a 3" MOA but I have never strung a vertical group at 150yds. They are a bit more random. This is all off a bench. Off hand I shoot a 4"-5" MOA @ 100yds. I am happy with that. With shooting sticks the grouping shrinks a little but not much. At 150yds I can keep it on a paper plate off hand and with shooting sticks. I use 110gr of BH209 and a Barnes 290gr TMZ out of a T/C Omega. I have read that the 209 primers could seperate the sabot from the powder upon ignition before all the powder has burned and that is sposed to give you inconsistant groups. I have read that there is breech plug that has been adapted for a .22 Hornet cartridge and that is sposed to help with flyers but I havent tried or seen it first hand. I guess if your ML is scoped I would expect a better group at 150yds and it could be your load or shooting style. More trigger time fixes just about any problem.

I'd try changing powder or charge...In my Knight Disc I shoot 90grs of Goex FFF and the same ShockWaves, my hunting partner's American Knight is sighted in with 100grs of Pyrodex R-S and a 250 Shockwave...

Now, I do the load testing and sighting in for several different buddies...With these two guns and loads, I sight in 2 1/2 high at 100 yards and the bullets hit about 2 1/2 low at 150...I can keep all shots within 4 inches at that range, which is within 2 inches of the aimpoint...In fact, I usually tweek the initial sightin with a scope sighted inline at 150 and then back in to 125, 100, 75 and 50 and give a target to the owner...

As said, you're close and many guys are happy with that...I just love to shoot...:biggrin:

I have learned a few things on here as well. I'm going to try a few deals on friday I think other than what others told me.

I remember havin the same problem. I have a Knight Disc and that's about as good as my groups get at 150, but before when I was struggling with my patterns, I was a matter of FEET off. Someone told me to make sure that I'm swabbing in between shots; that cleared my inaccuracy right up! I also found that I was using too much power. 100 grains of Triple7 pellets is JUST right in my gun.

PS - If you're worried about your shots being a little inconsistant because your scared of missing a deer, and your margin of error is only a matter of 3 inches, you have to figure that the kill zone on a deer is nearly triple your error.

Hope this helps!!