smokless in a pro hunter
 

OK I AM NOT GOING TO DO THIS ! Dont jump on me ! But a couple of guys are doing this with their pro hunters and older encore rifles ...Now last I heard the only smokeless powder ml was a savage.Why would they do this and what could they gain .. versus a center fire rifle ... Can you tell I am bored and its raining cats and dogs here????

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

Why would they do this...

A. Have not read the manual or warning labels
B. Have a death wish
C. Like to live on the edge
D.Their IQ is in need of great help
E. Because some people think they can defeat the odds and do dumb things.
F. They love ambulance rides
G. They have a great health care plan

What might they gain...

A. A small velocity increase that would never be noticed bythe NorthAmerican Whitetail Deer
B.They don't have to swab between shots or clean their rifle as soon as some of the conventonal shooters. Although with some of the new powders on the market, even that is not a real valid reason.
C. Plastic Surgery
D.A cool granite rock or brass plate with their name and date of birth on it.


These people that try all of this experimental shooting smokeless powder in a rifle not made for it, take chances. Every time they pull the trigger, they take a chance. If I saw this on the range I would bring it to the attention of the range master, and sit as far away from them as possible.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

You are correct that the Savage is the only large scale production muzzleloader that will safely handle smokeless loads when the correct powder and loads are used. The problem is that there are some smokeless powders that respond similar to black powder (have similar pressure curves). Notice I said there are SOME and I said SIMILAR not exactly the same and not all smokeless powders. Smokeless powder is much more sensitive to pressure and loading areas and loading techniques than black powder or the substitutes so trying to shoot smokeless in any type in a rifle that was not designed and tested for that powder is just asking for real trouble up to and including failure of the rifle which can, and probably will cause severe damage to the shooter up to and including death. Not sure why anyone would chance this. As far as any advantage the only one is less corrosion or fouling possiblities but there are substitute powders that are almost as corrosion and fouling free. Blackhorn 209 (which has very suspicious similarities to smokeless powder) and the new form of Black Mag III which is now being called Black Mag XP which is soon to be available from MDM as they finally got control of the company and are now the owners. As far as comparing with centerfire rifles there is no comparison as the ballistics are way different even for the Savage. You just cannot push a .50 caliber bullet out of a muzzleloader as fast as a .30 caliber bullet out of a centerfire rifle.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

I know of a few people doing that as well. NONE of them are using the factory breech plug.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

nysmoker there is a company called smi that makes a barrell for this

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

Yeah I went on the SMI website once .I think they make smokeless barrels for encores, H&Rs and rem 700s.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

My advice is DONT DO IT. What is to gain by using smokless powder in a ML not designed for it? Parts of your head, fingers, hands and other parts of your body ripped apart by flying metal pieces of your rifle. DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT USING SMOKLESS POWDER IN A GUN NOT DESIGNED FOR IT!

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

In a recent Hunter Education class, one of the people taking the course mentioned that she was told a Pro-Hunter could be used with smokeless powder. You wonder where this stuff comes from. After showing her the information in the manual, she still was reluctant to believe the "no smokeless" warning.

Hope she doesn't get hurt.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

I am sure you could find a smokeless powder and charge that was safe.....but I would NOT want to be the guinea pig trying to find this out by actually shooting one from my shoulder. I'd want a few different barrels and test them to failure, as well as having the equipment to measure and understand the pressures generated.

Some day I'm sure I'll have a Rem700 converted to smokeless, it is on my "gun wish list" but a-ways down. My plain jain Omega does pretty much everything I need unless I want to be dropping animals at 500+yds with a ML, which is a bit extreme.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

Spaniel

Is your remington a 50 caliber or 54? Did they ever make a conversion kit too the 209 for the remington700?

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

nysmoker

Remington conversion...

http://armurierlavaltrie.ecrater.com/

The Remington action they convert is the true Remington short/long action with bolt locking lugs. The Remington ML does not have locking lugs, the firing really is not a firing pin it is a falling hammer design and it can be re-cocked just from blow back.

The original 700ML barrels were made from regular rifle barrel materials..

Here is an example of a Remington Conversion...

http://www.prbullet.com/700.htm

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

Just one more effect of the dumbing down of America.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

now i guess i could view this two ways, either way .. i guess im smart enough to keep my comments to myself ... thanks

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

I'm talking about converting a Rem700 short action into a smokeless ML, which is already a proven concept....NOT a 700ML into a smokeless ML. A 700 and a 700ML are NOT the same platform, as has already been pointed out. The 700 is a centerfire action designed to take the pressures of powerful smokeless magnums and threads barrels with similar strength. The 700ML is a 700 in name only, it is not the same action, but rather another company's ML stamped with Remington's name for marketing purposes. Like the Genesis, Remington has never manufactured the MLs stamped with the Remington name.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

ok thanks spaniel

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

Pac-Nor, a Barrel manufacturer in the north west USA makes a drop in Barrel for the 700 rem that uses a Savage type Beech plug("DD Special" I believe it is called, if you were to call them, Penny, would answer the phone and know what you needed for this conversion, you would have the choice of any length contour, twist, and material that they use). This conversion normally uses a primed 45 ACP case to light the powder, there is a Machine shop in PA that stocks the breech plug for this conversion.

There have been many 700 MLs converted to smokeless by using this barrel and a Savage BP. It is best to fit the bolt of the 700ML with a savage bolt end to hold the 209, a new firing pin or modified pin is needed as the bolt comes as a less than desirable 209 bolt. IMHO

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

Hi Spaniel,

Remington did indeed make the 700ML at the Ilion NY plant. I live 20 miles from the plant and do know for a fact that the 700ML was made in Ilion NY. The 700 ML action does share the same thread and recoil lug as the CF 700 action, like a savage ML10II the 700ML has no provisions for recoil lugs, this is how they got it classified as a non form 4473 Muzzle loader. ( it cant be fit with a CF barrel and work) the external dimensions of the action I believe are the same as your SA 700, the trigger is even the same. The bolt is basically the same rear portion but it was modified to hit and light #11 caps, no front lugs and is shorter. Almost like an internal plunger type bolt Large firing pin, lots of blow back into the bolt to require disassemble and cleaning.

Here is a link to the Final Rm 700ML owners Manual:http://www.remington.com/pdfs/om/om_700ml.pdf

You are correct in every way that the Genisus is not made by the Big Green,

Eliphalet Remington the founder of Remington Arms, was in fact a muzzle loader rifle manufacturer, Black Smith, in Ilion NY, many moons before we were ever thought of :). The name Remington was put on many original Muzzle loaders made by the hands of Eliphalet, and his apprentices.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

Apparently a usually good source was not. That's what you get for believing the internet. I stand corrected, thanks.

RE: smokless in a pro hunter
 

If your friends decide to do this have them video tape it and send it to Darwin Awards... They can have their tombstone say "We died Because we were Stupid" Putting smokeless in an Encore with a factory gun is a death wish.