My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

This is my response in another thread. I decided to make a new topic out of it. I realize we have different opinions. I am sharing my reason why I prefer to stay with Blackpowder guns that don't cross the line. A line that is arbitrary of course. This is where the line is drawn for me.

I just don't like the idea that a gun is capable of shooting smokeless because I think that factor puts it in a different class than a Blackpowder gun. I don't like the CVA Electra because of the ignition. I believe it is things like this that will cause Blackpowder guns to be classified as firearms someday. Right now Blackpowder guns are not firearms in most states and therefore not subject to FFL regulations. I see that changing. For example the Electra in some states requires a FFL to buy it. Same with guns that you can change the barrels to centerfire. The savage is just one more gun that crosses the line. I hate to see muzzleloaders in the same category at firearms .Right now they are still somewhat exempt from the attack of the anti-gun nuts. I would like to see it stay that way. I realize that the line is arbitrary. Some people would say if it isn't a flint lock shooting real blackpowder it isn't a muzzleloader. Some would say that if you load it down the muzzle then it doesn't matter if it shoots smokeless. I draw the line with powder. If it shoots blackpowder or substitutes then I can accept that , I prefer Traditional guns but in-lines are here to stay and I have quite a few I use during deer season. That is some of my reasons. Let's keep the advancements in Blackpowder technology from destroying the very basis of the fun of a muzzleloader and the additional seasons of hunting, as well as the classification of it.
That's where I draw the line., now how about you. Where do you draw the line and why?

RE: My reason for not liking the Savage or CVA Electra
 

Chet - I have to say I agree with you. Ok, by simple definition, a muzzleloader could be any firearm that is loaded from the muzzle. However, other than the time it takes to load, what disadvantage would a smokeless .45 cal muzzleloader have over a .45-70 cartridge chambered rifle? Probably none. The only additional component is the casing which is housed in a chamber instead of powder in a breach.
But on the other hand - you cannot stop progress.
This is a double edged sword. And a similar debate is going on in the archery world with the addition of crossbows for archery season.
These two arenas are runnign parallel courses:
first there was the recurve (sidelocks), then the compounds (inlines), and now crossbows (smokeless MLs).
I think it is going to be up to the individual as to where to draw the line. Me, I'll stick with my traditionals (and my one and only inline).

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

chetmarks

Pretty darn good line as far as I am concerned...

One other thought one of the reason that many states allow you to use a ML instead of the required shotgun, was the orginal thought that a ML had limited range and was safer to use in populated areas.... well that limited range is growing leaps and bounds - some of those states might even reconsider...

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. And believe me I respect your opinion as the opinion of countless others on these forums. First off I need to qualify myself before I comment. I do not own a Savage muzzleloader or CVA Electra. So there is no bias in my comments.

My argument is,if we start drawing lines at smokeless VS black powder, why not black powder VS substitute powders. Some of the new powders such as BlackHorn 209 and IMR White Hots sound pretty impressive. What about the Triple Seven magnum pellets? Again, some impressive ballistics are able to be achieved there. So perhaps we need to move that line a little more? :eek:

The only differences to me that smokeless powder gives to me as a user is;

1. more power. (people claim) But in reality, compared to some of the hot loaded Triumphs and Knights we are talking a couple hundred feet per second. Does this mean we should classify rifles because of their ballistic capabilities? Of course not.

2. extend the range. But isn't the correlation of range more closely tied in to the design of the rifle and the way the rifle functions? Look at some of the Triumph shooters with their 200 grain SST's shooting 250 yards. On a different forum they were discussing the ethics of a 300 yard shot or the capability of it. How many of you get to use and practice to,the full extent of the range on your muzzleloaders?

3. cleaner to burn and cheaper to shoot. Isn't that what all the substitute powders are really trying to achieve as well? Well maybe not the cheaper to shoot. But think about it. Savage tells you don't have to clean the rifle at the end of the day. Some of the other powders and members of the forum can attest to the same thing with some of the substitute powders.

Well this is a great question. First off it was partly answered. The cartridge.One has a cartridge. A pre made mode of shooting. It takes the more common human error to some extent out of theequation.

Also if the muzzleloader shooter makes one small mistake as not enough loading pressure, etc.. this can change their shot. A .45/70 as long as I have well made cartridges and can slide them in the back end, I can expect very consistent results. Not that the Savage can not do the same, but one had a greater margin of error then the other.

Speed of loading is a second factor.Give me a hand full of cartridges and you a Savage muzzleloader, and lets shoot five shots in a row. Time us. Guess who will win every time. The Savage is a MUZZLELOADER. Hence it has to be loaded through the muzzle. Just like your Omega, Triumph, or grandpa's old hawkin rifle.

What disadvantages does the Savage have.. well the vent liner. Someone told me it had to be replaced every hundred or so shots. I can not claim this as fact, but if that were the case, I would need a case of them around the house as well. Another disadvantage of the savage is the fact it can not throw large clouds of stinky white smoke. That it me is a absolute necessity.What funis it?I went to the muzzleloaders because I was tired of sitting upin a tree on the edge of the field with a7mm mag Ruger.The Savage cost wise is reasonable compared to some rifles. So really it sounds like a pretty good rifle.

Also from what I understand, you must be very careful in the fit of the sabot. Does a Savage shoot a conical? I really do not know. We all know they shoot sabots with extreme accuracy, but then so does my Black Diamond. The last disadvantage of the smokeless rifle is in the kind of powder it burns. And I am not talking about the beautiful smoke here. I am talking about the attitude of people.

When many people hear smokeless, they start to feel like this thing has a real edge out there in the field. How many of you could have used an extra 50 yards out of the rifle's range? How many of you practice to the full capabilities of the current rifle you shoot? If I shot a deer at 100 yards with a hawkin rifle or a Savage rifle, which should I be more proud of? Well I should be proud of the fact I was able to hunt and get to 100 yards. But lets stretch that to 200 yards. Your first thought is, the hawkin was a better harvest because after all the other person had a smokeless... smokeless muzzleloader carry that bad attitude because modern center fire rifles are smokeless. They are not the same other then the powder they burn, but they are both smokeless, hence not in a black powder league.

And the Electra.. its a nice muzzleloader that did away with the 209 primer and put in a battery. Does your 209 fail to fire.. once in a while perhaps. Do you carry extra batteries in your pocket? For my flashlight I do. Not my rifle. I really did not get excited about the Electra. Its a battery operated muzzleloader. It uses an electrical spark instead of a #11, musket cap, 209 primer, pan of powder, or small caliber rifle brass.. its an idea that just never made it. Should it be banned.. why not!! Its different. So it must be better. Hog wash. Its not better. Its different is all.

There is nothing wrong with making a stand on key points of a muzzleloader and how it is fired. But the important thing is even though it is different, it needs the support of the entire muzzleloading community. If I wanted to damage this sport, I would agree with all the Savage and Electra haters and cheer them on in their efforts to do away with them. Make the legislator aware that these different rifles are bad, and need to be outlawed. And after that was done, hey.. these Triumphs that shoot 250 yards.. that's all wrong to. And these Knights, and so on. Instead I support the Savage and the Electra. I will not own one (unless there is a heck of a deal on them). But I would not chase one off my range for being different. To each their own.


When you start pointing afinger at one flaw as my Dad used to say, there's more fingers pointing back at you.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

cayuqad....
I'm in total agreement. That's what makes this sport so exciting and challenging.....something for everybody
Zen

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Very good points Cayugad. I will mention that a factory savage cant duplicate the velocities that i am with 200grn bullets and BH209 out of My 45cal Disc Elite. Ecspecially not accurately. That's why people are buying 45cal Pac-Nor barrels for them.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Just about every one here has made a legitimate point. And that is why I have to stick with my original posted statement that it is the individual that has to draw his own personal line.
You can't stop progress - but you don't have to keep up with it either. (Hey - that's a pretty good quote...:eek:)
Boy, isn't is nice that we can have our own opinions in here and not get ridiculed by the other members of this forum?

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Good points by everyone but as bronco2200 says...it comes down to a personal choice (self-limiting). And as Cayugad says...be careful knocking another's way of doing it.It could turn around and bite ya!

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

bronko I agree.. each have to decide what they will allow. I could not agree more. The other thing is we have to work as a group to protect the rights of all tp decide for them selves. Personally I am not an advocate of the Savage or the Electra. Although the Savage has interested me in the past. Maybe someday I will get one just to play with.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

It is pretty simple for me, 1 savage, 2 inlines 1 with scope one without, 1 flintlock, 1 sidelock with a 54 and a 50 barrel. One for each season MLer season I use inlines, rifle season I will use my Savage, FL season use FL and late season in Va use sidelocks, again simple a gun for every purpose. We have different pairs of things for our feet for different purposes sneakers, boots, hunting boots, sunday shoes, work shoes, etc, same with rifles. The Savage is a very well made accurate gun. So some folks have no line, because they have a purpose for each gun.
Chap

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Wow, I haven't posted here for a long time.I miss it. In my opinion, if you put the bullet and the powder in seperately and do it from the wrong end, it's a muzzleloader. That said, I used to think the Savage not necessarily crossed the line, but it at least blurred it, and I thought the Electra was just a dumb idea. But I also haven't touched a gun since ML season last year. With two kids under 2 I just don't have the time to get out and shoot. And if I do, I'm probably not going to be able to get it cleaned the same day, so I'm not going to risk ruining my guns. So, if I had $600 to go buy a Savage right now, I would do it in a heartbeat. I miss shooting. That way I could go out and shoot, and if I couldn't get back to clean for a few days, it's ok. I guess what I'm saying is I see that every gun is not for everybody, but there's a niche for every gun, and for some people, the Savage or the Electra are the perfect gun, and for those people it allows them to further the shooting sport, and so it's ok.

I still think the Electra is a dumb idea though.

Vince

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

While I'm pretty progressive in terms of the ranges I do most of my shooting at and pushing to get the most out of the equipment I do have, I do not have a Savage or Electra. If I were going to spend the money on a Savage, I would not do so unless I also was willing to put the money in to immediately convert it to .45 and go all the way. I just don't get very excited about the advantages of a factory Savage with smokeless. I don't know why, maybe I just like making smoke.

I really don't like it when the crowd gets devisive...traditional vs inline, smokeless vs not....I think there is plenty of room for everybody to draw their own lines and yet respect the right of everyone else to do likewise.

I really don't think smokeless would ever be a deciding factor in classifying MLs as FFL firearms. The reason they are not has more to do with the convenience factor of reloading -- the reason for the whole FFL thing goes back to Oswald and the Kennedy assasination, and the concern of controlling weapons likley to be used in crimes. Any ML, despite how good the ballistics can be, is a one-shot weapon in most crime scenarios. Smokeless or electronic ignition is insignificant in that perspective.

Now there is a law that I know is under consideration (or was?) in one of the eastern states to outlaw any weapon 50cal or larger. This would have included MLs, though the ignorant author of the law likely had no idea.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

To each his own is the way i look at it.I like the savage so i would no doubt get one,one day.As for the cva never.I would never trust something with a battery shot,for saftey reasons of it going off.On top of that the cva is outlawed in some states already.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

As others have stated, if hte bullet and powder go in the wrong way - it must be a muzzle stuffer. Now as to the Electra,The company came by our range one day and gave us a performance demo. My only problem was the diode. It took too long to recharge for the follow-up shot. They said they would work on it. If thye did, then it should work fine. If not, I canreload and shoot faster then that gun could recharge for another shot. 'Nough said. ;)

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

As The proud owner of a savage I would never go back to shooting dirtburners again ,but to each his own. MLing isnt a hobby to me, I use my gun to wack game in slug zones and in ML sesason, its just a tool to me,so I dont "draw a line". why wouldnt someone want to carry the best, most effiecient gun they could get, when trying to fill a tag? I have absolutly no guilt for owning a more accurate, more powerful, less recoiling, cheaper shooting and much more dependable gun ,that I dont even have to clean! Besides it still takes just as long to load and its not like Im gonna take much longer shots than I could w/ a conv.ML or slug gun, so I dont see how anyone can say, its as dangerous as a centerfire which is a BS myth anyway. My savage isnt much differnet than a newer knight or TC, its just cleaner, doesnt shoot a white cloud out the barrel, and I KNOW its gonna go off, whats wrong w/ that ?

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Dave, be careful if you start "playing with a savage" it adds to your already full fledged addiction known as muzzle loading. I'm off the opinion that if it loads from the muzzle and you are comfortable with your choice then it's ok. I had a whole paragraph that I just deleted because it all goes back to my underline text.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Adeer wacking tool, that is very efficient at what it does and you can see the game when you wack it and it is shootable in Shotgun areas, who wouldn't want one?Maybe price. I guess ifSavage made a 350 Savage and marketed a lot more (like TC)you would see a lot more of them. I think we are at the end of MLer performance wtih BDC scopes, BH power and 200g pointy bullets (I shoot 180g in my 30-06), you can shoot 250 yards, but most of use back east here know we shoot most of the time under 100 yards, very seldom 150 or longer. Any inline MLer sighted in 3" high at 100 with ANY bullet can get MPBR of 170 yard, which I claim is the effective range of my Savage or any inline or standard MLer with a standard non-BDCscope. So if you got $550 and wanna get into smokeless MLing the Savage is the cheapest option,there are a couple of other options, but they are more expensive and can't beat the Savage's out of the box1.5 guarantee.






As for the Electra, it is a MLer for sure, will you be able to get parts for it in 20 years? My gut is that it won't be a seller and therefore there will be parts problems with them in 20 years, so why invest in a "maybe" when you can buy a KNOWN like an Omega or a Triumph or an Accura and know that there will be parts around in 20 years. That is my take on the Electra, if pimers were $1 each, then I think the Electra would be a hit, but primers are $5 for 100, so no incentive to go Electra.
Chap

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Well, here is my two cents worth. It is a little like television programs. I don' like a lot of the programs being aired today but I dont believe they should be taken off the air because some of them are offensive to me. I have enough sense to turn the channel when they come on.

Now, back to the B.P guns. I shoot, build and hunt with flintlock rifles and smooth bores. That is my choice but I have friends that hunt with the modern inlines as well as carterage guns. We hunt together and have a good time and I do not look down on them for their choice of sporting gear.

As for the CVA Electra ,I dohave some serious concerns for safety. Nowthink about it, With a convential muzzeloader or even an inline, would any ofyou prime it before loading powder and projectile? It seems to me that is exactly what you are doing when you load the CVA Electra. Your battery in in place waiting to create a spark to ignite the powder. I know there are safeties to prevent this from happening but safeties can and do sometimes fail.
Likewise, I would not place the safety on with a conventional gun and point it at something or someone I did not intend to shoot.

Thats just my ideas on the subjects.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

I think that Cayugad summed it up nicely.

I am a Savage 10ML-II shooter, and in terms of practical advantage when it comes to hunting, there is none with the Savage compared to any other muzzleloader.
It is still a muzzleloader, with all the practical drawbacks that entails.

My rifle loads from the front just like a Knight, T/C or CVA, it still uses loose powder (why no objection to pellets, as they allow faster reloading than loose powder does) that must be carefully dropped down the bore. I load my Savage just like anyone else loads their muzzleloader. I just don't have to swab between shots (but neither does Blackhorn 209 shooters, and that seems to be perfectly acceptable to people like the original poster). So what's my advantage AS IT APPLIES TO HUNTING?

NONE.

Smokeless powder gives the following benefits:

It doesn't require swabbing between shots. This is great at the range, but it the woods it doesn't matter since it's unlikely that any ML hunter will get an opportunity to reload before the deer are long gone. Also, every ML I've owned has always allowed me to reload at least once without swabbing no matter which powder was used.

It doesn't require hasty cleaning, attract moisture or corrode your rifle. Again, it's a nice thing when time doesn't allow you to run home and clean right away, but it offers no practical advantage when actually hunting.

It is FAR cheaper than the "acceptable" substitutes. 10 ounces of BH 209 (again, which is VERY similar to the properties of smokeless) costs roughly $30 and is good for roughly 65 shots if loaded to 100 grains BP equivalent by volume. One (true) pound of AA 5744 costs about $19, and is good for over 150 shots at the typical load of 45 grains. Again, this is not an advantage in the field, other than the lesser price encourages more practice and can make one a better shot.

Other advantages of smokeless are that it is far SAFER to handle than BP and most of the other volumetric subs because it does not explode when burned, and requires considerable ignition energy to initiate the decomposition reaction. BP and most subs require only a tiny spark, and will burn violently and/or detonate even when uncontained. When uncontained, smokeless powder burns slowly but intensely.

Using the Savage recommended loads, my muzzle velocities are, at most, about 100 fps higher than those achievable with the "acceptable" BP subs. 100 fps gives no practical advantage for range or killing power. Now, some Savage shooters have been known to experiment with very hot loads using powders not recommended by Savage, and have achieved some very high velocities, but they take their lives into their own hands when they do (and it's a testament to the strength of the Savage ML that very few accidents happen with these "hot rodders").

It takes me just as long to reload a followup shot as it does anyone else. Even with BP it's almost always possible to reload once without swabbing, so the no need to swab between shots advantage of smokeless is only practically evident at the range (where it makes shooting the Savage a REAL pleasure, instead of a chore).

My Savage shoots the same saboted bullets as any other ML can, so there is no advantage of more streamlined bullets or such. If I can shoot a bullet out of my Savage, so can anyone else with a .50cal ML.

People talk about how certain "BP subs" are "acceptable", but this is an ignorant statement at best (at worst it's plain stupid). Smokeless powder was developed in roughly the 1880's, long before anyone conceived of Pyrodex, which was the first so-called BP substitute marketed specifically to ML shooters as a volumetric equivalent to BP. Nitrocellulose based smokeless powder IS THE ORIGINAL BP SUBSTITUTE. If you know the history, that it the undeniable truth. Not many people shoot BP in their .45-70 or .45 Colt anymore, but both were originally BP cartridges. When smokeless powder became available, people started reloading their BP cartridges with it as a substitute for dirty BP. Today, over 100 years later, most people outside the "cowboy action" sport would conceive of shooting BP out of their Marlin or Ruger Blackhawk.

The point is that it's still a muzzleloader, with all the practical drawbacks in the field as any other. And now with BH 209 out, which has almost all the properties of smokeless other than the lack of smoke and the price, I really don't understand why the anti-smokeless crowd hasn't done away with their hypocricy and gone after it, too, since it shares almost all the properties that the anti-smokeless folks object to.

Here's my proposal. All those who want to shoot a slow-twist .58 cal flintlock with buckhorn sights, pure lead roundballs and real black powder, go for it. I don't even care if you dress up like Davy Crockett, with home-made buckskins and a coonskin cap to complete the effect. Enjoy yourself and rest assured that I will leave you to your preferred style of hunting. But at the same time, if I want to hunt with my Savage and smokeless powder, why don't you leave me alone and let me be? If the anti-gun crowd gets any law passed against ML's, it won't be because my Savage shoots smokeless powder, it'll be because a ML is a gun, which is what they hate and fear.

The only thing that worries me more than a bunch of idiot anti-gunners trying to take my rights away and/or ruining my preferred method of hunting, is when a bunch of idiot hypocritical hunters and ML shooters try to do it to me! [:@] I'm not infringing on your ability to enjoy your ML season by being in the woods with my Savage just because I have it loaded with smokeless powder. Would it make any difference if I had loaded it with BH 209 or Triple 7 to comparable velocities (which is certainly possible, since the Savage 10ML can be loaded with non-nitro powder as well)? Absolutely not! So why don't you stop trying to throw your fellow ML hunters under the bus just because you don't like the type of powder they shoot, especially when, for all practical purposes as it applies to hunting, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.


Mike

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

I agree completely with driftrider!!:)

I made a comparable post a month or 2 ago.

This thread reminds me of the talk when Knight brought our there version of the inline. The inline wasn't a new design it was just an improvement on an earlier design.

I built my Smokeless powder Muzzle Loading rifle, and I rebuilt my .58 under hammer. I also have 3 side locks and a Knight T-bolt.

IMHO I like them all and feel that any bickering is only detrimental to the entire hunting Community.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

Whoa Mike - don't go gettin all stressed out. I read a lot of the posts on this topic and sans one or two, most of us are in agreement that it is up to the individual as to what he desires to use. I for one prefer caplocks and flinters when it comes to MLing. But that is personal. (Heck, the guys in here almost had to twist my arm to get me to buy an inline.) During 'regular' hunting seasons, I've been known to often tote a new fangled 'cartridge' gun.
I understand the technological advancement with the Savage ML and the cost advantage and I have no qualms with someone using one provided it is legal to use. And I am sure most of the members in here think the same.
And I do agree that we as hunters/shooters should be very careful at putting down another peers preference in firearms.

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

+1

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

The reason I get worked up is because there are plenty of buddy f**krs out there who call themselves hunters that will gladly throw me and my way of hunting under the bus so that they, in their selfish elitism, can have their ML season totally exclusive to their preferred style of ML. Their desire to reclassify my ML the same as CF rifles/shotguns does nothing but drive hunters out of the woods. With the numbers of hunters declining every year, ever shrinking numbers of hunter/voters will bring the ultimate demise of ALL hunting a lot faster than my Savage with smokeless will.

The fact is that my Savage offers no practical advantage over any other inline ML, regardless of powder used. Mine still loads from the front one component at a time, just like any other, and mine still must be primed in a separate step before it can be fired. I can shoot 2 shots from a clean bore no faster than anyone else (and slower, in fact, than pellet users, since all smokeless is loose powder). The only "edge" I might have is that I don't have a blinding cloud of smoke that obscures my view of a wounded animal, which allows me to more quickly access if my shot was true and gives me an initial direct to start tracking, improving the chances of recovering the animal. That's it. Every other advantage is a matter or economics and convienience. But the elitists completely ignore the truth and continue to lobby for ever more restrictive rules and regs on state ML seasons through their legislators and state DNRs. These rules will alienate more and more people who want to hunt with a ML that has been removed from the legally permitted weapons for reasons that don't matter in the woods. Many of these guys (and probably gals, too) might just say "to h*ll with this", and hang it up. One less hunter, one less voter who thinks or cares about hunting in the voting booth, and one step closer to the anti's getting exactly what they want.

That's why I get ticked off.

Mike

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

I gtot to agree with Dave on this one. I also if had an extra $500 or $600 would buy a Savage. I see no difference buying a cheaper smokeless powder than buying a high price BP sub to lessen my cleaning. It is just when you pay. Up front with the Savage and on the end with BH209.
I also don't care for the I want my own private season and every body else has to conform if they want to hunt in it.
They tried to geta so called primitve season here in Michigan a while back.
Turns out you can use a long bow or recurve in any season to hunt deer, you can use a flint lock in any firearm season to hunt any legal game.

Iffin ya'll want to point fingers start argueing a shot gun is a smooth bore. Iffin you add rifleing it is a rifle. Might just as well take care of those upstart rifled barrel shotgunners too.
Not going to talk about those carbon arrows and such either.

:D Al

RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra
 

I see it as a personal choice and, in that, I am in agreement with no smokeless muzzleloaders FOR MYSELF.

Calm down, Mike, you do not help either by attacking and ridiculing your fellow hunters.