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My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

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My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

Old 04-10-2009, 08:32 AM
  #1  
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Default My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

This is my response in another thread. I decided to make a new topic out of it. I realize we have different opinions. I am sharing my reason why I prefer to stay with Blackpowder guns that don't cross the line. A line that is arbitrary of course. This is where the line is drawn for me.

I just don't like the idea that a gun is capable of shooting smokeless because I think that factor puts it in a different class than a Blackpowder gun. I don't like the CVA Electra because of the ignition. I believe it is things like this that will cause Blackpowder guns to be classified as firearms someday. Right now Blackpowder guns are not firearms in most states and therefore not subject to FFL regulations. I see that changing. For example the Electra in some states requires a FFL to buy it. Same with guns that you can change the barrels to centerfire. The savage is just one more gun that crosses the line. I hate to see muzzleloaders in the same category at firearms .Right now they are still somewhat exempt from the attack of the anti-gun nuts. I would like to see it stay that way. I realize that the line is arbitrary. Some people would say if it isn't a flint lock shooting real blackpowder it isn't a muzzleloader. Some would say that if you load it down the muzzle then it doesn't matter if it shoots smokeless. I draw the line with powder. If it shoots blackpowder or substitutes then I can accept that , I prefer Traditional guns but in-lines are here to stay and I have quite a few I use during deer season. That is some of my reasons. Let's keep the advancements in Blackpowder technology from destroying the very basis of the fun of a muzzleloader and the additional seasons of hunting, as well as the classification of it.
That's where I draw the line., now how about you. Where do you draw the line and why?
 
Old 04-10-2009, 09:09 AM
  #2  
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Default RE: My reason for not liking the Savage or CVA Electra

Chet - I have to say I agree with you. Ok, by simple definition, a muzzleloader could be any firearm that is loaded from the muzzle. However, other than the time it takes to load, what disadvantage would a smokeless .45 cal muzzleloader have over a .45-70 cartridge chambered rifle? Probably none. The only additional component is the casing which is housed in a chamber instead of powder in a breach.
But on the other hand - you cannot stop progress.
This is a double edged sword. And a similar debate is going on in the archery world with the addition of crossbows for archery season.
These two arenas are runnign parallel courses:
first there was the recurve (sidelocks), then the compounds (inlines), and now crossbows (smokeless MLs).
I think it is going to be up to the individual as to where to draw the line. Me, I'll stick with my traditionals (and my one and only inline).
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:43 AM
  #3  
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

chetmarks

Pretty darn good line as far as I am concerned...

One other thought one of the reason that many states allow you to use a ML instead of the required shotgun, was the orginal thought that a ML had limited range and was safer to use in populated areas.... well that limited range is growing leaps and bounds - some of those states might even reconsider...
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:47 AM
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. And believe me I respect your opinion as the opinion of countless others on these forums. First off I need to qualify myself before I comment. I do not own a Savage muzzleloader or CVA Electra. So there is no bias in my comments.

My argument is,if we start drawing lines at smokeless VS black powder, why not black powder VS substitute powders. Some of the new powders such as BlackHorn 209 and IMR White Hots sound pretty impressive. What about the Triple Seven magnum pellets? Again, some impressive ballistics are able to be achieved there. So perhaps we need to move that line a little more?

The only differences to me that smokeless powder gives to me as a user is;

1. more power. (people claim) But in reality, compared to some of the hot loaded Triumphs and Knights we are talking a couple hundred feet per second. Does this mean we should classify rifles because of their ballistic capabilities? Of course not.

2. extend the range. But isn't the correlation of range more closely tied in to the design of the rifle and the way the rifle functions? Look at some of the Triumph shooters with their 200 grain SST's shooting 250 yards. On a different forum they were discussing the ethics of a 300 yard shot or the capability of it. How many of you get to use and practice to,the full extent of the range on your muzzleloaders?

3. cleaner to burn and cheaper to shoot. Isn't that what all the substitute powders are really trying to achieve as well? Well maybe not the cheaper to shoot. But think about it. Savage tells you don't have to clean the rifle at the end of the day. Some of the other powders and members of the forum can attest to the same thing with some of the substitute powders.

what disadvantage would a smokeless .45 cal muzzleloader have over a .45-70 cartridge chambered rifle? Probably none.
Well this is a great question. First off it was partly answered. The cartridge.One has a cartridge. A pre made mode of shooting. It takes the more common human error to some extent out of theequation.

Also if the muzzleloader shooter makes one small mistake as not enough loading pressure, etc.. this can change their shot. A .45/70 as long as I have well made cartridges and can slide them in the back end, I can expect very consistent results. Not that the Savage can not do the same, but one had a greater margin of error then the other.

Speed of loading is a second factor.Give me a hand full of cartridges and you a Savage muzzleloader, and lets shoot five shots in a row. Time us. Guess who will win every time. The Savage is a MUZZLELOADER. Hence it has to be loaded through the muzzle. Just like your Omega, Triumph, or grandpa's old hawkin rifle.

What disadvantages does the Savage have.. well the vent liner. Someone told me it had to be replaced every hundred or so shots. I can not claim this as fact, but if that were the case, I would need a case of them around the house as well. Another disadvantage of the savage is the fact it can not throw large clouds of stinky white smoke. That it me is a absolute necessity.What funis it?I went to the muzzleloaders because I was tired of sitting upin a tree on the edge of the field with a7mm mag Ruger.The Savage cost wise is reasonable compared to some rifles. So really it sounds like a pretty good rifle.

Also from what I understand, you must be very careful in the fit of the sabot. Does a Savage shoot a conical? I really do not know. We all know they shoot sabots with extreme accuracy, but then so does my Black Diamond. The last disadvantage of the smokeless rifle is in the kind of powder it burns. And I am not talking about the beautiful smoke here. I am talking about the attitude of people.

When many people hear smokeless, they start to feel like this thing has a real edge out there in the field. How many of you could have used an extra 50 yards out of the rifle's range? How many of you practice to the full capabilities of the current rifle you shoot? If I shot a deer at 100 yards with a hawkin rifle or a Savage rifle, which should I be more proud of? Well I should be proud of the fact I was able to hunt and get to 100 yards. But lets stretch that to 200 yards. Your first thought is, the hawkin was a better harvest because after all the other person had a smokeless... smokeless muzzleloader carry that bad attitude because modern center fire rifles are smokeless. They are not the same other then the powder they burn, but they are both smokeless, hence not in a black powder league.

And the Electra.. its a nice muzzleloader that did away with the 209 primer and put in a battery. Does your 209 fail to fire.. once in a while perhaps. Do you carry extra batteries in your pocket? For my flashlight I do. Not my rifle. I really did not get excited about the Electra. Its a battery operated muzzleloader. It uses an electrical spark instead of a #11, musket cap, 209 primer, pan of powder, or small caliber rifle brass.. its an idea that just never made it. Should it be banned.. why not!! Its different. So it must be better. Hog wash. Its not better. Its different is all.

There is nothing wrong with making a stand on key points of a muzzleloader and how it is fired. But the important thing is even though it is different, it needs the support of the entire muzzleloading community. If I wanted to damage this sport, I would agree with all the Savage and Electra haters and cheer them on in their efforts to do away with them. Make the legislator aware that these different rifles are bad, and need to be outlawed. And after that was done, hey.. these Triumphs that shoot 250 yards.. that's all wrong to. And these Knights, and so on. Instead I support the Savage and the Electra. I will not own one (unless there is a heck of a deal on them). But I would not chase one off my range for being different. To each their own.


When you start pointing afinger at one flaw as my Dad used to say, there's more fingers pointing back at you.
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:00 AM
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

ORIGINAL: cayugad

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. And believe me I respect your opinion as the opinion of countless others on these forums. First off I need to qualify myself before I comment. I do not own a Savage muzzleloader or CVA Electra. So there is no bias in my comments.

My argument is,if we start drawing lines at smokeless VS black powder, why not black powder VS substitute powders. Some of the new powders such as BlackHorn 209 and IMR White Hots sound pretty impressive. What about the Triple Seven magnum pellets? Again, some impressive ballistics are able to be achieved there. So perhaps we need to move that line a little more?

The only differences to me that smokeless powder gives to me as a user is;

1. more power. (people claim) But in reality, compared to some of the hot loaded Triumphs and Knights we are talking a couple hundred feet per second. Does this mean we should classify rifles because of their ballistic capabilities? Of course not.

2. extend the range. But isn't the correlation of range more closely tied in to the design of the rifle and the way the rifle functions? Look at some of the Triumph shooters with their 200 grain SST's shooting 250 yards. On a different forum they were discussing the ethics of a 300 yard shot or the capability of it. How many of you get to use and practice to,the full extent of the range on your muzzleloaders?

3. cleaner to burn and cheaper to shoot. Isn't that what all the substitute powders are really trying to achieve as well? Well maybe not the cheaper to shoot. But think about it. Savage tells you don't have to clean the rifle at the end of the day. Some of the other powders and members of the forum can attest to the same thing with some of the substitute powders.

what disadvantage would a smokeless .45 cal muzzleloader have over a .45-70 cartridge chambered rifle? Probably none.
Well this is a great question. First off it was partly answered. The cartridge.One has a cartridge. A pre made mode of shooting. It takes the more common human error to some extent out of theequation.

Also if the muzzleloader shooter makes one small mistake as not enough loading pressure, etc.. this can change their shot. A .45/70 as long as I have well made cartridges and can slide them in the back end, I can expect very consistent results. Not that the Savage can not do the same, but one had a greater margin of error then the other.

Speed of loading is a second factor.Give me a hand full of cartridges and you a Savage muzzleloader, and lets shoot five shots in a row. Time us. Guess who will win every time. The Savage is a MUZZLELOADER. Hence it has to be loaded through the muzzle. Just like your Omega, Triumph, or grandpa's old hawkin rifle.

What disadvantages does the Savage have.. well the vent liner. Someone told me it had to be replaced every hundred or so shots. I can not claim this as fact, but if that were the case, I would need a case of them around the house as well. Another disadvantage of the savage is the fact it can not throw large clouds of stinky white smoke. That it me is a absolute necessity.What funis it?I went to the muzzleloaders because I was tired of sitting upin a tree on the edge of the field with a7mm mag Ruger.The Savage cost wise is reasonable compared to some rifles. So really it sounds like a pretty good rifle.

Also from what I understand, you must be very careful in the fit of the sabot. Does a Savage shoot a conical? I really do not know. We all know they shoot sabots with extreme accuracy, but then so does my Black Diamond. The last disadvantage of the smokeless rifle is in the kind of powder it burns. And I am not talking about the beautiful smoke here. I am talking about the attitude of people.

When many people hear smokeless, they start to feel like this thing has a real edge out there in the field. How many of you could have used an extra 50 yards out of the rifle's range? How many of you practice to the full capabilities of the current rifle you shoot? If I shot a deer at 100 yards with a hawkin rifle or a Savage rifle, which should I be more proud of? Well I should be proud of the fact I was able to hunt and get to 100 yards. But lets stretch that to 200 yards. Your first thought is, the hawkin was a better harvest because after all the other person had a smokeless... smokeless muzzleloader carry that bad attitude because modern center fire rifles are smokeless. They are not the same other then the powder they burn, but they are both smokeless, hence not in a black powder league.

And the Electra.. its a nice muzzleloader that did away with the 209 primer and put in a battery. Does your 209 fail to fire.. once in a while perhaps. Do you carry extra batteries in your pocket? For my flashlight I do. Not my rifle. I really did not get excited about the Electra. Its a battery operated muzzleloader. It uses an electrical spark instead of a #11, musket cap, 209 primer, pan of powder, or small caliber rifle brass.. its an idea that just never made it. Should it be banned.. why not!! Its different. So it must be better. Hog wash. Its not better. Its different is all.

There is nothing wrong with making a stand on key points of a muzzleloader and how it is fired. But the important thing is even though it is different, it needs the support of the entire muzzleloading community. If I wanted to damage this sport, I would agree with all the Savage and Electra haters and cheer them on in their efforts to do away with them. Make the legislator aware that these different rifles are bad, and need to be outlawed. And after that was done, hey.. these Triumphs that shoot 250 yards.. that's all wrong to. And these Knights, and so on. Instead I support the Savage and the Electra. I will not own one (unless there is a heck of a deal on them). But I would not chase one off my range for being different. To each their own.


When you start pointing afinger at one flaw as my Dad used to say, there's more fingers pointing back at you.

cayuqad....
I'm in total agreement. That's what makes this sport so exciting and challenging.....something for everybody
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:55 AM
  #6  
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

Very good points Cayugad. I will mention that a factory savage cant duplicate the velocities that i am with 200grn bullets and BH209 out of My 45cal Disc Elite. Ecspecially not accurately. That's why people are buying 45cal Pac-Nor barrels for them.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:43 PM
  #7  
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

Just about every one here has made a legitimate point. And that is why I have to stick with my original posted statement that it is the individual that has to draw his own personal line.
You can't stop progress - but you don't have to keep up with it either. (Hey - that's a pretty good quote...)
Boy, isn't is nice that we can have our own opinions in here and not get ridiculed by the other members of this forum?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:56 PM
  #8  
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

Good points by everyone but as bronco2200 says...it comes down to a personal choice (self-limiting). And as Cayugad says...be careful knocking another's way of doing it.It could turn around and bite ya!
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:02 PM
  #9  
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

bronko I agree.. each have to decide what they will allow. I could not agree more. The other thing is we have to work as a group to protect the rights of all tp decide for them selves. Personally I am not an advocate of the Savage or the Electra. Although the Savage has interested me in the past. Maybe someday I will get one just to play with.
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Old 04-10-2009, 06:47 PM
  #10  
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Default RE: My reason for not wanting a Savage or CVA Electra

It is pretty simple for me, 1 savage, 2 inlines 1 with scope one without, 1 flintlock, 1 sidelock with a 54 and a 50 barrel. One for each season MLer season I use inlines, rifle season I will use my Savage, FL season use FL and late season in Va use sidelocks, again simple a gun for every purpose. We have different pairs of things for our feet for different purposes sneakers, boots, hunting boots, sunday shoes, work shoes, etc, same with rifles. The Savage is a very well made accurate gun. So some folks have no line, because they have a purpose for each gun.
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