Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
01-30-2009, 10:21 AM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 295
Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
In a not so distant past, gleason.chapmansuggested that folks, especiallynew shooters, do some research andask a whole series of questions.Does anyone have the answer to the "Why didHornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet" question?
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman
"You can talk about scopes and different MLer all day, but when ya talk about the things that are doing the actual work bullets folks take it pretty personal and are very serious about it. I alsothink that people don't like ya talkin' about their pet xxxxx bullet if ya have not shot them at game and used them, and that is a valid point, however to make their choice of SW without shooting them they did the exact same thing, read articles, listen to reports of friends, shot them at the range and then used them to hunt with. The three bullets that people really get upset about are SW/SST, XTPsand PB.There are two camps on each of those bullets you either love them or you hate them and you tend to not be as objective as you think you are, becauseeveryone tend to keep evidence that supports your POV and discard evidence that doesn't. Thru the school of hard knocks with PBs I now like "strong well constructed expanding bullets that hold together well and expand well in flesh, not bone".
I do know this, most new MLing people start out MLing with absolutely NO idea of what bullet to use, they use what the guy at the store told them or use what their buddies shoot, if their buddies got them into MLing. Most have not done the research on bullet design, shot it into wet newpaper, sand or packed top soil to see if they expand, fragment or hold together well. Most will not even read struff on the Internet under Cabelas and Midway Product reviews, they just stay with their bullet until something bad happens,then they go looking as to why this bullet did this or that. They then get educated on what bullets are designed for what purpose and how to use the bullet properly. Most people have bad luck with a given bullet because their didn't use it propertly i.e. shooting PBs 295 with 150 777 pellets, shooting SW at a deer at 30 yards, etc. Once they get educated on what bullet is best for me in my hunting situations, they pick a good bullet shoot it where it is suppose to go and then get excellent results. That has been my journey at least, and none of us want to loose game, and we like to think our judgement is 100%, 'cause we are strong willed guys. I am rambling, so I will quit. Anyway buy the book "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter, A Definitive Study" and read it several times, then ask yourself why does Craig Boddington say "long shanks on a perfectly expanded bullet with no wight loss" is a thing of beauty. Why is it long shanks? Why does Al Marion, a gun writer say "pancaked bullets" are to be avoided (i.e. bullets that are inside out", totally flat). Why is it that terminal performance is with 12" of penetration, not 6"? Why doens't a fragmenting bullet work on deer? Why 300g for shoot thru when 250 is so close to 300? Why is it that 350g and high bullets are in conicals not sabots? Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet? So bullets and bullet perormance is one of the most debated topics on this forum, and we mostly have gentlemanly strong conversations about them. Most guys are pretty passonate about their bullets, more so than powder, chevy/fords or any other thing."
"You can talk about scopes and different MLer all day, but when ya talk about the things that are doing the actual work bullets folks take it pretty personal and are very serious about it. I alsothink that people don't like ya talkin' about their pet xxxxx bullet if ya have not shot them at game and used them, and that is a valid point, however to make their choice of SW without shooting them they did the exact same thing, read articles, listen to reports of friends, shot them at the range and then used them to hunt with. The three bullets that people really get upset about are SW/SST, XTPsand PB.There are two camps on each of those bullets you either love them or you hate them and you tend to not be as objective as you think you are, becauseeveryone tend to keep evidence that supports your POV and discard evidence that doesn't. Thru the school of hard knocks with PBs I now like "strong well constructed expanding bullets that hold together well and expand well in flesh, not bone".
I do know this, most new MLing people start out MLing with absolutely NO idea of what bullet to use, they use what the guy at the store told them or use what their buddies shoot, if their buddies got them into MLing. Most have not done the research on bullet design, shot it into wet newpaper, sand or packed top soil to see if they expand, fragment or hold together well. Most will not even read struff on the Internet under Cabelas and Midway Product reviews, they just stay with their bullet until something bad happens,then they go looking as to why this bullet did this or that. They then get educated on what bullets are designed for what purpose and how to use the bullet properly. Most people have bad luck with a given bullet because their didn't use it propertly i.e. shooting PBs 295 with 150 777 pellets, shooting SW at a deer at 30 yards, etc. Once they get educated on what bullet is best for me in my hunting situations, they pick a good bullet shoot it where it is suppose to go and then get excellent results. That has been my journey at least, and none of us want to loose game, and we like to think our judgement is 100%, 'cause we are strong willed guys. I am rambling, so I will quit. Anyway buy the book "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter, A Definitive Study" and read it several times, then ask yourself why does Craig Boddington say "long shanks on a perfectly expanded bullet with no wight loss" is a thing of beauty. Why is it long shanks? Why does Al Marion, a gun writer say "pancaked bullets" are to be avoided (i.e. bullets that are inside out", totally flat). Why is it that terminal performance is with 12" of penetration, not 6"? Why doens't a fragmenting bullet work on deer? Why 300g for shoot thru when 250 is so close to 300? Why is it that 350g and high bullets are in conicals not sabots? Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet? So bullets and bullet perormance is one of the most debated topics on this forum, and we mostly have gentlemanly strong conversations about them. Most guys are pretty passonate about their bullets, more so than powder, chevy/fords or any other thing."
01-30-2009, 10:54 AM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
They wanted to market a conical that would compete with sabotted bullets in every way out to 150 yds.
So they designed what they thought would and I would say they did a pretty good job. Lee
So they designed what they thought would and I would say they did a pretty good job. Lee
01-30-2009, 12:37 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
Lee's answer is as good as any I've heard. My opinion is that the hollow base gives the bullet a length that is similar to the very effective lead conicals in the 460 grain range but at a weight that gives a higher velocity to compete with the trajectories of the lighter sabot rounds and still give good accuracy and energy on the recieving end of the shot. IMO they seem to have achieved what they were going for.
01-30-2009, 12:45 PM
#4
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
Wouldn't a full bore conical if lighter in weight, run the risk of not stabilizing well and tumbling? Plus these are meant to be pushed and in some cases hard. So that means a lot of velocity. Now the lighter REAL conicals shoot well in most rifles, but you can not push them too hard or they fly all over the place.
I am guessing that since they were trying to mimic a sabot round with a conical, this was about as low a weight as they dare go. Now if they had a plastic sleeve like the Saber Tooth or the Powerbelts, that could expand for them and then fall off, that would be different.
I personally know very little on bullet design. I am one of them that try the thing. If it works.. great. If not, move on. So far the few FPB's I have shot show a lot of promise.
I am guessing that since they were trying to mimic a sabot round with a conical, this was about as low a weight as they dare go. Now if they had a plastic sleeve like the Saber Tooth or the Powerbelts, that could expand for them and then fall off, that would be different.
I personally know very little on bullet design. I am one of them that try the thing. If it works.. great. If not, move on. So far the few FPB's I have shot show a lot of promise.
01-30-2009, 01:05 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
ORIGINAL: vadeer
In a not so distant past, gleason.chapmansuggested that folks, especiallynew shooters, do some research andask a whole series of questions.Does anyone have the answer to the "Why didHornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet" question?
In a not so distant past, gleason.chapmansuggested that folks, especiallynew shooters, do some research andask a whole series of questions.Does anyone have the answer to the "Why didHornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet" question?
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman
"You can talk about scopes and different MLer all day, but when ya talk about the things that are doing the actual work bullets folks take it pretty personal and are very serious about it. I alsothink that people don't like ya talkin' about their pet xxxxx bullet if ya have not shot them at game and used them, and that is a valid point, however to make their choice of SW without shooting them they did the exact same thing, read articles, listen to reports of friends, shot them at the range and then used them to hunt with. The three bullets that people really get upset about are SW/SST, XTPsand PB.There are two camps on each of those bullets you either love them or you hate them and you tend to not be as objective as you think you are, becauseeveryone tend to keep evidence that supports your POV and discard evidence that doesn't. Thru the school of hard knocks with PBs I now like "strong well constructed expanding bullets that hold together well and expand well in flesh, not bone".
I do know this, most new MLing people start out MLing with absolutely NO idea of what bullet to use, they use what the guy at the store told them or use what their buddies shoot, if their buddies got them into MLing. Most have not done the research on bullet design, shot it into wet newpaper, sand or packed top soil to see if they expand, fragment or hold together well. Most will not even read struff on the Internet under Cabelas and Midway Product reviews, they just stay with their bullet until something bad happens,then they go looking as to why this bullet did this or that. They then get educated on what bullets are designed for what purpose and how to use the bullet properly. Most people have bad luck with a given bullet because their didn't use it propertly i.e. shooting PBs 295 with 150 777 pellets, shooting SW at a deer at 30 yards, etc. Once they get educated on what bullet is best for me in my hunting situations, they pick a good bullet shoot it where it is suppose to go and then get excellent results. That has been my journey at least, and none of us want to loose game, and we like to think our judgement is 100%, 'cause we are strong willed guys. I am rambling, so I will quit. Anyway buy the book "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter, A Definitive Study" and read it several times, then ask yourself why does Craig Boddington say "long shanks on a perfectly expanded bullet with no wight loss" is a thing of beauty. Why is it long shanks? Why does Al Marion, a gun writer say "pancaked bullets" are to be avoided (i.e. bullets that are inside out", totally flat). Why is it that terminal performance is with 12" of penetration, not 6"? Why doens't a fragmenting bullet work on deer? Why 300g for shoot thru when 250 is so close to 300? Why is it that 350g and high bullets are in conicals not sabots? Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet? So bullets and bullet perormance is one of the most debated topics on this forum, and we mostly have gentlemanly strong conversations about them. Most guys are pretty passonate about their bullets, more so than powder, chevy/fords or any other thing."
"You can talk about scopes and different MLer all day, but when ya talk about the things that are doing the actual work bullets folks take it pretty personal and are very serious about it. I alsothink that people don't like ya talkin' about their pet xxxxx bullet if ya have not shot them at game and used them, and that is a valid point, however to make their choice of SW without shooting them they did the exact same thing, read articles, listen to reports of friends, shot them at the range and then used them to hunt with. The three bullets that people really get upset about are SW/SST, XTPsand PB.There are two camps on each of those bullets you either love them or you hate them and you tend to not be as objective as you think you are, becauseeveryone tend to keep evidence that supports your POV and discard evidence that doesn't. Thru the school of hard knocks with PBs I now like "strong well constructed expanding bullets that hold together well and expand well in flesh, not bone".
I do know this, most new MLing people start out MLing with absolutely NO idea of what bullet to use, they use what the guy at the store told them or use what their buddies shoot, if their buddies got them into MLing. Most have not done the research on bullet design, shot it into wet newpaper, sand or packed top soil to see if they expand, fragment or hold together well. Most will not even read struff on the Internet under Cabelas and Midway Product reviews, they just stay with their bullet until something bad happens,then they go looking as to why this bullet did this or that. They then get educated on what bullets are designed for what purpose and how to use the bullet properly. Most people have bad luck with a given bullet because their didn't use it propertly i.e. shooting PBs 295 with 150 777 pellets, shooting SW at a deer at 30 yards, etc. Once they get educated on what bullet is best for me in my hunting situations, they pick a good bullet shoot it where it is suppose to go and then get excellent results. That has been my journey at least, and none of us want to loose game, and we like to think our judgement is 100%, 'cause we are strong willed guys. I am rambling, so I will quit. Anyway buy the book "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter, A Definitive Study" and read it several times, then ask yourself why does Craig Boddington say "long shanks on a perfectly expanded bullet with no wight loss" is a thing of beauty. Why is it long shanks? Why does Al Marion, a gun writer say "pancaked bullets" are to be avoided (i.e. bullets that are inside out", totally flat). Why is it that terminal performance is with 12" of penetration, not 6"? Why doens't a fragmenting bullet work on deer? Why 300g for shoot thru when 250 is so close to 300? Why is it that 350g and high bullets are in conicals not sabots? Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet? So bullets and bullet perormance is one of the most debated topics on this forum, and we mostly have gentlemanly strong conversations about them. Most guys are pretty passonate about their bullets, more so than powder, chevy/fords or any other thing."
Chap
01-30-2009, 02:37 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: 1st State, Delaware
Posts: 162
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
I think Chap as hit the nail on the head!! I killed many of deer with my TC Hawken with Lyman receiver sight and big heavy slugs (the bigger the better). I hunted with a group, we used to putdrives on so you didn't shoot until the deer was within 25 -75 yards and you had to know what was beyond your target. Now I won this TC Encore Pro Hunter.I"ve sinceupgraded the scope to 3X9 because with the new sabots and powders I realize the range has been extended way beyond what I can shoot with open sights. But I wonder if its taking the original challenge out of muzzle loading.It certainly isn't what it was when I started 40 years ago.
01-31-2009, 07:46 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
ORIGINAL: Rock Fish
It certainly isn't what it was when I started 40 years ago.
It certainly isn't what it was when I started 40 years ago.
I think MLing has followed this same progression with basically FL and percussions dominating until 1980's when Tony Knight came out with the inline and the market boomed. I think things are at it's innovation limits in MLing, cause basically a MLer is a 45/70 and that has been around a long time, it is at max a 200 yard gun. I think people like myself who came from bow hunting like the challenge of 1 shot, like the killing power of the big bullets and like everything about MLing, except the cleaning after your dead tired and you got a deer in the evening. I think there is going to stay two markets in MLing, back east here where it is basically <100 yard shooting with 70 yards the average and mid west and out west shooting that will be 200 to 250 yards with most of it between 150 and 200. I think your going to find people like myself that get into FLs and percussions as well as inlines and basically don't CF hunt any more. I would have NEVER got into FLing without first getting into inline MLing and I started with pellets, two 50 grain, pryodex, then 2 777 then 3 777 then had issues with bullets, then loose power and better bullets. MLing is really hand loading without all the expensive stuff of a reloading bench, so it appeals to all tinkers and folks that like shooting sports. It is less expensive than CF shooting. It is actually quicker kills I believe at < 100 yard due to more energy on the target. The bullets have definitely gotten better over the years and we now enjoy a full range of good rifles, good powders, good bullets and good sabots. I don't think there was that innovation when the market was small. As guys learn MLing is better than shotgun hunting, we are gonna see more MLing in shotgun only states. I see it alot in NY State where I hunt with my brother, we all use MLers now. So alot has changed, and I think for the better, since there are more hunters enjoying MLing. You can still use traditionals and that is fun also. In fact I wanna devote a week to hunting traditional next year, why just to do it, learn, enhance skill. Best Wishes,
Chap
Chap
01-31-2009, 08:18 PM
#8
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 552
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
ORIGINAL: Rock Fish
But I wonder if its taking the original challenge out of muzzle loading.It certainly isn't what it was when I started 40 years ago.
But I wonder if its taking the original challenge out of muzzle loading.It certainly isn't what it was when I started 40 years ago.
I didn't start 40 yrs ago (about 12) but I believe you have a point. I used a ML for years before my buddies picked it up. And they did it when they started going out of state on these fancy (read:expensive) deer hunts. They realized they had better accuracy and distance than a shotgun. I resisted inlines for years until I was given one (an Omega). I slowly started getting into them but I still love to shoot & hunt with my Lyman Deerstalker. I'm thinking of getting a FL. I'll stop rambling now. [
]
01-31-2009, 08:28 PM
#9
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
ive been through a good deal of inlines, about the only one i wish i had kept was my x-150. Inlines just dont have the romance that the old sidelocks do for me.
02-01-2009, 04:54 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet?
ORIGINAL: MountainDevil54
ive been through a good deal of inlines, about the only one i wish i had kept was my x-150. Inlines just dont have the romance that the old sidelocks do for me.
ive been through a good deal of inlines, about the only one i wish i had kept was my x-150. Inlines just dont have the romance that the old sidelocks do for me.
I think the guys that were into traditional before inlines, hate to give up their traditional to go with inlines, because they learned early and truely have a heritage they would be giving up. Their heritage could have been taught to them by a father, big brother or uncle and that is a great thing---I didn't have that had to learn everything myself. Most guys however have joined the inline revolution and they like it a lot and are seeking to improve their skill by shooting percussions and flintlocks, which takes another level of commitment and patience. I don'tthink that there will be a great resurgance of "traditional shooting" unless states open up a "traditional only season" and inline season and a CF season. You can of course use you traditional in CF if ya want or in inline season. We don't have a "traditional in Va", but I wouldwelcome it, especiallyearly for a week. So 1 week of traditional starting 1 st week of Nov, 2nd week of Nov is inline season and 3rd week is CF season. That would be cool.
Chap