What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I want the best shelf life,most consistant accuracy, less corrosive, no crudring and easy cleaning. I have been using Pyrodox Pellets and want to switch to loose powder for better more consistant accuracy. I have heard that BlackHorn 209 is all of the above. Has anyone used it? What's the best preformer?

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

Yes and the answer is most probably yes - it is probably the best but it has limits... not all ML's can use - it is to darn expensive, unless you are just hunting, and it is a little tough on BP fouling

I am totally biased - I like to shoot and one of the reasons that I shoot ML's is that is less expensive than a centerfire - moving to BH would really up the cost of shooting. I am not a continuous shooter as some others are but I shoot 5-7 lbs of T7 each year. T7 works well for me... and if MX works out it will be that much better....

Just my little bit of Bias...

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I have shot off two pounds of Black Horn 209 and it is a very impressive powder to shoot.

No swabbing of the barrel is needed.
Very powerful.
I had very good accuracy.
Easy to clean with a solvent.
No crud rings.

The draw backs..
1. cost = it comes in 10 ounces jugs and they go for on average $25.00 - $32.00 per jug.
2. it is not available in all areas. So make sure you have a source for it if you intend to shoot it. Or you can add a hazmat fee to the cost of the powder. That's an extra $25.00
3. breech plugs tend to carbon up and special attention must be paid to the fire channel in them.
4. you clean it with solvent. No water with this stuff.
5. only certain rifles and certain primers can handle the stuff. Make sure your rifle is one of them.

Triple Seven 2f loose powder is a hard powder to beat. It works good in all rifles, but there is the chance of a crud ring. But if you swab the barrel between shots the crud ring is not a problem. It is also in the $20.00+ range per pound and you can find it on sale for a lot less then that.

Pyrodex RS in powder or loose is a good powder. And you know how that acts.

APP (American Pioneer Powder, Shockey Gold, Pinnacle).. some rifles love this powder and some rifles don't. You will not know until you try it. Accuracy is excellent. Good power to it. Easy to clean. No crud ring. No swabbing.

So the best powder for you is the powder that is most accurate with your favorite and trusted projectile you hunt with.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I'd either jut use Pyrodex R-S or Goex FFF...

They are both fairly cheap, easy to clean, no crud ring and very consistant...

As far as corrosion, as long as you clean and oil you muzzleloader, no problem...
If you don't want to take the time to do this properly, maybe you should be using a cartridge gun...:D

Actually, I have buddies that are too dang lazy to clean their cartridge guns as well...:D

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I am using BH 209 in my Omega and Knight Disc, it is however expensive. I started out with Pyrodex pellets, switch to 777 pellets, then 777 loose. I don't like the crud ring of 777. BH does not have that and it is a veryconsistent powder. Seems to ignite well. I placed a charge in my Knight last weekend and will shoot it this weekend, just to see whtat it does. I am using Barnes MZ 300g in the Omegaand Knight behind 100g of BH 209. This was the first 3 shots of BH 209 out of my Omega, you can see the 3 bullets out of the package. I was impressed, I never even worked up a load. I said, that is good enough for hunting for me. Adjusted the scope 4 clicks right and that was my hunting load in my Omega. No swabing is what you get with BH, to me that is worth it, since I have to swab in the field and that is a pain, keeping wet patches in a sandwich bag, making sure they are not died out day to day.
Chap

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

There is a number of things involved here first and formost is what gun you shoot.
If you shoot a closed breach TC they have well designed breach plugs and any of the regular 209 for reloading[ not the ones made for muzzle loading] will work with BH 209 and it will be the best.
If you can stand the crud ring 777 may be the best with a Knight some of them can not ignite BH properly, my self, if the gun shot accuratly with Pyrodex and I could not use BH then I would use Pyrodex I like the possability of a second shot while hunting we get 3 tags here.
If you use any traditional rifles or a pistol the pyrodex or black powder is indicated, I had to many hang fires in my traditional guns with 777 to trust it while I never have any problem with black or pyrodex.
Lee

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

There's a I.B.O Pro Shop not too far from where I live, nice place, Indoor range and all, plus they carry all the stuff you need for Bow's, Guns, and ML's including the Powders. So the (hazmat-fee) is no problem, I'll see if he's got some or just have him order me some. My shooting range is in the backyard so I can get right on it, or when I get the powder anyway.....being laid-off for the Winter has it's advantages!

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Cleaning My ML has never been an issue, I love doing it! so the cleaning part is the least important part of my powder question. Yes, I have looked down the barrel of a few ML's that were'nt cleaned after being shot the preveous season. It was'nt a pretty sight!

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Is that a 50yd group? I usually sight in like that, 2"- 3" high @ 50 will put me right on @ 100. Nice Shooting.......Going today to see if the Local Pro Shop has some BH 209.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I use it and I love it!

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

I would say - do not discount T7 because of accuracy - it will shoot very accurately...

It worked very for me...

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Nice Shooting! I have'nt decided yet on the powder, so the T7 is till an option, it's just the crudring everyone talks about is what Im worried about. As I said, cleaning is not a problem, Im gonna tyr the MX Bore Cond. Do you use it with the T7? Also how do you like the USML Scope, I got one and was just wondering what your thoughts were on it.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

also are you using the Remington Kleen Bore 209's?

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I have yet to try BH209 and I do not think I will. Weighing the advantages vs the disadvantages. I have one inline ML and the rest are traditional style both cap lock and flint lock. Depending on the rilfe I am shooting, IshootGoex FFFg, FFg, Pyrodex RS or Pyrodex P. So to answer your first question as to which is the bext, I would have to say that only your rifle knows for sure.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

I know it has to be a concern, but in fact I wish i could send you some T7 and have you shoot a few shots - especially if you have been using BB in your barrels anyway. You might really be surprised.

Actaully that is a statement I would expect from Cayugad... he calls it a "labor of love" - for me it is still just cleaning...

I honestly do not know at this point if this a 'crud ring' answer or not, both Dave and I are just starting with it... For me it certainly has shown promise - but I think I still have along ways to go. I did talk to a tech one time @ Montana X-treme about the product... he was totally excited about it and how it helped accuracy in center fire target barrels and even a regular centerfire - but could/would not promise anything about the 'crud ring.' His point was it was developed to provide consistency in the barrel from the breech to the muzzle - shot after shot.

Since you were or have been shooting one of the Pyros all this time I really do not think you will/would have a problem with T7.

All that said if your bugdet and your shooting will allow you to shoot BH it does have some very fine qualities. Once you work your way through its quirks it is a great powder. Remember it is a smokeless - progressive burning powder and with that it functions better with heavier bullets.

Just out of courisity - where are you located?

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Im In Western N.Y. 5 Miles From Lake Erie and 40 Miles From the PA Line. Snow Belt Country

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I appreciate the offer on the T7, I can get both here, the T7 and BH209, I'll try the T7 first and see what happens. Price really does'nt matter as Im only gonna use either the T7 or BH209 in just one of My MlL's, My other ML's will still use the standard Pyro Pellets. Im just working on the Ultimate Shooter for Hunting and that's why I want the best just for this one.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

Welllll, that's a long ways from northern Idaho... I imagine it snows there some....

The reason I asked is because I was wondering about your humidity. If I remember correctly one of Underclocked's theories of the 'crud ring' might have been 'humidity' might effect the formation of the ring.

another thing if you are a hunter... and do not plan on really shooting your ML that much - BH would probably serve you very well. For myself I still cn get T7 for $21.00 a pound right of the shelf and at the end of the year it is $18.00 and if I play the game I can get it from Wal-Mart at $15 and even at time $10. So that drives my decision.

Even i you decide not to shoot T7 - I wish you could shoot a few shots in your rifles - especially if you have been using BB and beore you use a bore oil- not for accuracy but just for fouling.

Better yet - you could get in your private jet and fly out here and we would head to the farm and you could shoot both T7 and BH - my treat....

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

There are different things that enter into it for different people, how much you shoot being one especially if you worry about the price. The two things that decided me were the awful crud ring I got I really do not like having a problem that causes me to have to carry cleaning equipment while hunting, the other was accuracy, while I could get occasional 1 inch groups with 777 if I cleaned good enough every shot, it was just wonderful to shot with out all that in between and get 25 to 50 percent improvement in my groups. A big part of my fun is in working to improve my accuracy. I know of other people who had the same results, I also know of some who did not see any difference and I don't really have any idea if it works better in certain individual guns which would relate to barrel whip and ignition or if it is some thing in the way it is used.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Snow, it sure does, in the last week alone we got 2 feet! Plus it's been cold, in the single didgets. It has'nt stopped snowing here since the second day of our Shotgun Season. Most places we hunt we could'nt as the snow was 3+feet deep, the Deer moved as close to the Cornfields as possible and stayed there. We actually felt sorry for them as the fawns were really struggling to get through the snow and the Coyotes had a field day with them. My Apple Trees in my yard still have Apples hanging from them, never ever seen them hang on so long, must be God's way of taking care of them this Hard Winter were having here. I go out a take a pole to knock them off the branches so the Deer can get em, then we watch them through out the day and night feed out our windows. Heck every now and then we see a Blackbear meandering through, they head into town and feed out of the Pizza places dumpsters. We own some property and I can look out the window and spot deer in the woods and in the past have just grabbed the ML and walked out the door and shot, even got a few 20yds from the house. It's nice out here in the Country. Most people did'nt know N.Y. has any country, but there's a-lot and we shoot many Big Bucks here during our Hunting Season 150-200 class annually. As for Idaho, sounds like a place I'd like to live, Im sure you have your fair share of game and pleanty of places to hunt. Im gonna get some of the T7 and I'll let you know how I like it. A trip to Idaho sounds like fun wish I could but while the wifes at work there'd be no one to keep the fire burning and my blacklab would shure miss me too.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

Ah! heck bring the lab... Idaho allows dogs and good friends. My son-in-law has 5 labs... I once made a mistake and asked him why he had so many... He is an avid upland game hunter, he then proceeded to 'splain to me each if his dogs had a certain job to do and they were very good at what they did fer hunting pheasents, duck, & geese. Crap I did not know you could unionize labs...

I really do like northern Idaho, I HUNT elk - love to hunt elk quit work and retired to hunt elk... I also will hunt deer but it more like they gotta find me to get shot. Started hunting turkeys a couple of years ago also - but gots lots to learn there.... and I love to shoot - do not realy care what i shoot - just like shooting - drives my wife nuts...

I am now waiting for May to get here - UC said Knight is introducing a new rifle in May built on the the Disc Extreme system - but with a closed bolt and a 'disc-less' operating system. I put my first penny in my piggy bank to start saving just a few minutes ago- gotta have one...

Oh! if you get out this way you ken bring ur lab and certainly your wife is welcome also, but if ya come here ya might not leave - way to much open country to hunt.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Your right, I probably would'nt leave. I have tasted Elk a few times and I must say I'd trade it for Venesion anyday. We went on a BowHunting trip to the Upper P of Michigan and a buddy brough some Elk, from that day on I was hooked, plus it only takes 1 Elk to fill the freezer. Do you Bowhunt? I'd love to get one with the Bow, Im a Bowhunter by heart but started ML Hunting for the love of the one shot only and been hooked on that ever since. Started huntink Turkeys 20 years ago when nobody hunted them, it was nothing to get 5-10 longbeards at once to come in, shot many a Turkey. Gave it up in the last few years, after you shot as many Turkeys as I have it gets boreing afetr awhile, not like Deer & Elk, with Turkeys a 22-24 pounder with a 11" Beard and 1 1/2" spurs is about as big as they get here, then you dont get bigger, with Deer it's anybodys guess what might show up. Have a-lot of private land to hunt birds but for now I just call em in for friends, plus after awhile getting up at 3;30 am starts to wear you down. Oh I forgot to mention, not that hunting Turkeys is al that boreing, I did go from the trusty 10 to the bow for em, and got about 11 with the bow. I learned a trick if anybodys reading this and wants a bird with a bow.....set up your decoy out in front of you and stand behind a tree and call, when the bird comes in he'll see the decoy and walk right passed you and then fan out, he never see's you when he fans out, then just aim for the rear where the tail feathers connect and wham, a nice close shot! Going into town and then check on the T7, catch ya later on........Ron ......and keep saving them pennys for the new Knight, sounds like a nice one, one can never have too many ML's

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

Here is last years harvest... Got her in "Larch Snag Draw" in Idaho...




It does make an impact on the freezer..

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Well the trip to the Pro Shot only got me the T72f, I'll call Alan for the sabots and Cabela's for the 10mm XTP's. Well you answered my question as to weather or not 120gr. of T7 is enough for long shots, the Elk proves it. Buy the was congratulations on the Elk, I can almost taste em! Are the 10mm 200gr.HP XTP's good enough for Whitetails? I been using the 240gr.XTP's and they have done more than I could ask for. I should have put this togeather awhile ago, being a Life Menmber of the I.B.O. and a Triple Crown Shooter Ialready knowthat lightening up on the fieldtip and lighter arrows gives you flatter trajectory, but for Hunting you want a heavier arrow/broadhead combo for better penetration, it's pretty much the same with the ML execpt you get a-lot more power from the powder. So what do you think of the 10mm.200gr.HP-XTP with 110-120gr. of T7 for a Whitetail/Coyote load? I kinda want to stay with the same load for this ML as it will be My Long Range Hunter and in the off season I want to keep in practice with Coyote's, so when next Shotgun Season rolls around them Whitetails will look huge and the shot's will be right on. Can you ML hunt during SG Season? Do you even have a SG season or is it just rifles? If it's rifle season can you use ML's? We have a fifle season here, but not in our county, we voted it out, we want to keep the deer take to a minimum, but Im afraid next season they'll allow it here. Whatever the case, I gave up rifles and Shot Guns and went Traditional years ago, it's more fun!

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

Good you got some.. I am really interested in what you find when you shoot it.... Check this thread to see how i make my windex patches...'just barely moist'

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=3302972

I beleive they are - I have not shot them at a whitetail... Idaho rule says the minumum bullet size for a ML and big game is .429. Lee on this board has used them on whitetail as well as a few others.... look at this ballistic print out...



I have shot them a bunch at targets and rocks and even recovered a few from the dirt- amazingly they hold together better than the bigger XTP's. I have also shot a few 'peepers' (ground squirrels) with them - you know when you hit them but you have to walk over and look for parts and bits - cause there is not much left.

We do not have a SG season here. We do have a very short ML season but no scopes, no 209's, and no copper. During that season I go to a TC Renegade with a Green Mt. LRH barrel and shoot 460 grain Bull Shops. I have several really nice centerfire rifles but I do not use them anymore - I hunt all year with a ML, during rifle season I use a scoped, 209 shooting modern inline. I am so old I can get to the greatest elk spots anymore so the ML works just fine for me and after spending 28 working of the US Forest Service here I have a couple really good pet spots here. Most people just bypass them headed deeper into the woods...

I am not a bow hunter - my son-in-law picked up the sport a couple years ago and is totally hooked - I am trying to stay away cause I do not want to spend the money getting outfitted and leanring a new trade - i want the money to be able to buy that new Knight ML they are coming out with this spring.

Good Shooten'

mike

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Already looked at it and have some extra empty TC No13 Bore Cleaner Patch cans to use for em, nice tip! Check out my reply to the forum on (sighting in a new scope) and tell me what you think of my (Line Sight) way. It really works. I'll let you know how I make out when I get all the rest of my stuff. My second ACCURA will be here in the morning, I cant wait to get the XTP's and Sabots to try everything out!

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Our season (gun) runs from the Middle of November to the middle of December, than a Late ML season for 9 days, we can use ML's throught the whole gun season. A few years ago the ML rules changed here, from patch and round ball and no scope, to Sabots and a Scope, so that's why that's all I use. I understand on the Bow Issue, $1200 for a new bow is crazy! then you have to buy everything else, when your done you have around $1700 into it, and a year later you'll be lucky to get $500 for the Bow,,,,,,,Im gonna check the rules for sabot size here..........

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

I checked our ML rules and all it says is that it (must be a single projectile loaded through the muzzle having a bore of .44 inches or larger) So it looks like them 10mm 200gr HP-XTP's will be fine. Since I already have about 300 of the 240gr.HP-XTP's how much difference will the 40gr. make??? If I need that little, they should be about the same should'nt they???

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Mike, I forgot to ask you, It's been awhile since I used loose powder in the poorboy with patch&round balls. When I loaded the ball on the powder I used to push it onto the powder and when I felt it seat I would then throw the ram-rod down the barrel untill the ram-rod bounced out of the muzzle, then I was happy it was seated good enough. Since a few years back now when they allowed scopes and sabots, I gave up loose powder in place of Pyro-pellets. My question is I have bever seated a sabot on loose powder, how do you know whe it's properly seated? Thank's....Ron

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Did some more checking on the 200gr XTP's, looks like I need to stay with the .45cal .452"dia 240gr.HP-XTP Mags to be in the right specs?? mabey Im wrong.....but the Ones I been getting are the TC 240gr. HP XTP Mags and I dont see them listed. Did Hornaday make the bullet special for ML use only??? and only available in the TC bubble pack. The ones listed in Cabela's are just the 240gr. XTP Mag's, No HP????

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Hornady makes both in bulk packs. you can get a 240 gr. regular hollow point in 44 cal. But to get a 240 gr. 45 cal bullet hornady only produces the xtp-mag.

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Breechplug

Not sure I am following the conversation... 'to be in the right specs' Hornady makes both a 44 cal 240 and a 45 cal 250.

Check here...

http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=59c9d81fc2bf7c3529f3f66193c 47dbc

Plug in the caliber of bullet you want to check...

And this one also

http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=e3b10bb9c6f996213cdc029782d a9a07

And again select the caliber...

http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=e3b10bb9c6f996213cdc029782d a9a07

Hope these might help....

I my little pea picken mindthese are a better whitetail bullet....

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=3&s2=7&s3=6

Then choose Products Listing....

Then look @ product 4484...

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Mike they did make them , I have had some: Lee





[/align]




.452 45 CAL 240 GR XTP/MAG
[align=right]more info[/align]

[align=center]Item No.[/align]
[align=center]Qty/Box[/align]
[align=center]Price[/align]
[align=center]View Ballistics[/align]


[align=center]45220[/align]
[align=center]100[/align]
[align=center]$38.88[/align]

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

lee

I thought they were still making it... I never looked at the current list on Hornady - is not shown anymore?

Ron said...
I am just not sure what he is trying to say here.... I had suggested that he might try the 10mm/200 cal XTP's for 'yotes' - he asked about shooting a whitetail with them - I think they would work fine on a whitetail, but indicated to him that I thought you had shot some deer with the 200 XTP.

In fact now I am going to send him an email and ask what I do not understand....

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Not for Bh 209 you need hot primers, not reduced flame primers. Chap

RE: What's the best ML Propellant?
 

Has anyone done any work with the new offering from IMR "White Hots" ?
The published data says 2 pellets and a 250gr. bullet = 1712 f.p.s.
The liberal crowd is going to hate this stuff. :D