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What is a CRUD-RING
I have been ML Hunting for 20+ years and have never heard of a crud-ring. What is it, what causes it, and how do you prevent it? Also does it damage the barrel of you ML, can you clean it out, does the crud-ring cause accuracy problems or is it just a pain in the @#$%^ for barrels?
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Well a crud ring is an accumulation of burnt powder and residue. Normally it is found in front of the breech plug where the actual powder ignition under the projectile takes place. Depending on the powder you shoot the crud ring can be very hard in nature, to very soft or even non existent. It is also a residue of sorts or fowling. But the crud ring people worry about can cause loading problems if left unattended. To remove it, you simply swab the bore with a slightly damp patch. It will remove the fowling and crud ring from the barrel. This helps the loading of the next round.
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Breechplug
Underclocked is the inventor of the term but not the problem. Many-Many people that shoot T7 get this bit of fouling just above the breech plug at or near the top of the powder. This ring of fouling will not allow a follow up loading to get to the correct height. One of the biggest and most common complaints about shooting T7 is that it builds or cause a "crud ring" so named by Underclocked. In some guns the ring is so hard it is almost impossible to get rid of. It will not allow the proper loading of the next shot. A lot of folks have to damp patch after each shot with T7 to clean the residue and allow the loading of the next shot. I have always thought for years the ring was caused by the heat and pressure created T7 having a reaction (chemical) or not with something in the bore or the pores of the bore. I am thinking the new conditioner might help reduce or eliminate the ring and the necessity of constant patching. Although running a patch for me is a good thing - it slows me down. It is a widely held belief that you can not 'season' a modern ML barrel - I also agree I hate that term because everyone instintivly thinks of the old cast iron pans. All metals can be 'conditioned' and I believe the the new Montana X-treme bore conditioner might be doing that, but I still am testing and trying to detirmine that. Cayugad is also running a concurrent test. Dave has made several observations that do follow the points I have found. His last test with conicals is something I have not tested but I am really encouraged. If you look at my last post... "another round @ the Dinger Farm' you will see the results of my last test round. I used a total of 5 patches for the whole shoot. Really not much of a point here but I also did treat my trap gun last week and shot 100 rounds on Saturday and 150 rounds on Sunday. The choke held up great - not the normal amount of plastic fouling hung up in there. This week I am switching to another ML a 50 Cal Renegade shooting PRB's to see if I can get simular results. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
I use BH209 so I have no idea about this crud-ring you speak of... :D
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
I have never had a crud ring black pwd or pryodex P before either.
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Actually all powders make a crud ring of sorts. They are just in different places and different degrees of hardness. All a crud ring is basically is the fowling produced by the ignition of the powder. Sometimes, like in the case of Triple Seven in some rifles, this fowling is very hard in nature and feels like a bump. For a better way of explaining it. A moist patch will scrub that right off when swabbing. So if you swab you very well might not ever feel a crud ring.
In the case of Pyrodex RS or P there is a crud ring. Its just spread out. Swab the bore and you will see the crud. It just does not ring up per say. The fowling is normally softer in nature too. BUT when you swab the bore you are technically taking out the crud ring in the form of fowling. You know, all that black junk on the patch. APP and others like that.. ever see the white ring near the muzzle of the rifle. And feel that white ring. That is unburnt powder sticking to the barrel. Just in a different place in the bore and different consistency. BlackHorn 209 might be a powder without a true crud ring of sort. BUT there is a black fowling in the bore. And with Black Horn it takes solvent to remove that, not a simple swab solution. Although alcohol will take it out if you want to swab between shot. Also if you say crud ring.. hows your breech plug? When I shot that powder the accumulation of hard to remove crud in the breech plug made cleaning that rifle just about as time consuming as with other powders. I swear that breech plug took me about ten minutes to get it to MY standards. Now I am fussy. And when in no hurry have been know to take a half an hour per rifle when I clean them. But when I am done, you can rest assured there is no sign of fowling, crud ring, or anything. Just a smooth mirror like bore, well protected with a quality oil product. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
ORIGINAL: cayugad Also if you say crud ring.. hows your breech plug? When I shot that powder the accumulation of hard to remove crud in the breech plug made cleaning that rifle just about as time consuming as with other powders. I swear that breech plug took me about ten minutes to get it to MY standards. As for the rest of the breech area that accumulates primer fouling... Some spray solvent on a q-tip makes small work of that. Regular q-tips suck! I use the q-tips I get from work on my guns. They're military hospital grade cotton swabs that are tightly spun on a wooden stick. Perks of working in an Armory. :D |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
I have shot every powder available for muzzle loading, the only powder that ever made crudring was 777 the rest are all loadable for at least 3 shots and with Blackhorn there is no limit. I believe a person should clean a gun after they shoot it and I clean my smokeless guns to as soon as I am done shooting. But I have heard it said that you and leave it for weeks with no problem,personally I would not. Lee
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Thank's cayugad or is it cayuqad? You explained it very well. I guess we all actually have some sort of a crudring, just more for some than others. As for the breechplug being hard to clean, I too have had to spend a-lot of time cleaning it. But one time I tried something, I took a very small amount of BB and applied it to the end of the breechplug, not plugging the fire channel. Then after an outing of shooting when I went to clean it, the fouling on it just wiped off. So since then I have been doing this with no problems at all. And you also mentioned not to use BB when you store you ML for long periods of time with high humidity. Well I swab the barrel's of all My ML's and shotguns prior to storage and have never had a problem when the next season came around and I inspected the barrela after removal of the BB. What problems have you noticed with storage of guns that had BB applied to them in high humidity, was it rust? Thank's for your reply, I learned much. Ron
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
My personal experience is with pyrodex there is a crud "cylinder" over an inch or two at the bottom of the barrel, does not really affect loading for a few shots but you can feel it if you run a wet patch down. With 777 in my Omegas, I got a true crud ring right where the seated sabot sits on the powder. If I did not get enough spit on a patch and just rammed it down there after the shot, it often jammed the jag in the barrel and I had to pull the plug to get it out.
I use the 25ACP conversion which does an 80% job of eliminating the problem, and just make sure I run a decent spit patch down the barrel in 3-4 short strokes so it doesn't have a chance to get stuck. End of all problems with 777, and my breech plug is clean in 15 sec. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
My personal experience is with pyrodex there is a crud "cylinder" over an inch or two at the bottom of the barrel, does not really affect loading for a few shots but you can feel it if you run a wet patch down. With 777 in my Omegas, I got a true crud ring right where the seated sabot sits on the powder. If I did not get enough spit on a patch and just rammed it down there after the shot, it often jammed the jag in the barrel and I had to pull the plug to get it out. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Well I swab the barrel's of all My ML's and shotguns prior to storage and have never had a problem when the next season came around and I inspected the barrela after removal of the BB. What problems have you noticed with storage of guns that had BB applied to them in high humidity, was it rust? Thank's for your reply, I learned much. Ron Anyway, I would bring out a bore butter gun and swab the barrel first to remove any extra bore butter and I almost always got a tobacco stain colored patch out of it. I asked a gun smith about it once, and he had no idea but said, maybe the bore butter changes colors as it ages.. Sounded reasonable. Then as time went, and more and more bore butter was used, my accuracy began to drop off. In fact I was at a deer camp and shot at a little buck not more then 40 yards away. I had that deer dead to rights. He dropped like a rock, then jumped up and took off. As he ran off, I could see his side, and he was hit low and back. And I knew I was not aiming there. So I walked back to camp a little upset. And to get help for the long track job. An old friend of mine was at camp and he'd shot muzzleloaders since he was a kid. I told him what happened. First thing he asked me was, do you use bore butter? I told him I did, so he had me take a pop at a target we had at camp and it was very low and left. He then told me we had to clean my rifle. So I water bathed it and then he handed me a bore brush and some solvent (which I used to think was a no no). I scrubbed the rifle clean. Then we boiled the barrel with water. It looked like ear wax floating out of that barrel. He then had me oil the bore, and then alcohol it back out. The next shot at the target was dead center. He then told me that the tobacco stain patches were actually rusted water in the bore butter. And that bore butter builds up in bores and basically turns your rifle into a smooth bore. Hence the accuracy disappears. So it has to be cleaned out. I never used it again since that day. We walked that buck down. It took me two miles and we recovered him about 10:00 pm. We wereunarmed (illegal to carry guns at night). He was still very much alive. But he was hurt pretty bad and had kind of went a little stiff (he was dying). So I took care of him. Then we had to drag him out of a swamp. I was worried the coyotes would have had him before morning. I will be the last person to talk someone out of using something they believe in. It just will not go back in my rifles as something to protect it with. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
I have heard nothing but bad things about Bore Butter. I will never use it.
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
WOW, I have the same brown patches using BB just after a few minutes of sitting in the barreal. Most times after I clean the barrel I'll swab with BB, the run a dry patch, swab with BB, to make sure I coated it good, then swab with a dry patch and BB again. And during the dry patches I noticed they were brown. I figured I had'nt cleaned the barrel good enough, so back to cleaning. I inspected the barrel after cleaning and it was mirror clean. So back to the BB, and brown again after a patch or two. I jsu figured it was a chemical reaction to the metal and BB and nothing to worry about. But now you got me worrying and If I have to change what Im using I will. I did order 2 cans of the MontanaX and there on the way. I'll use that and see what happens. What did you coat your barreal with after the BB and befor the montanaX? Ron
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
I used a lot of different oils. I went through a WD40 phase and that stuff worked real good. Then I got hooked on Rem Oil for a long time. Then a couple years back a poster told me about Birchwood Casey Sheath and I started using that. That has to be my all time favorite. BUT I keep Sheath, Rem Oil, Breakfree CLP, and Kroll Oil, Smith & Wesson bore treatment, and WD 40. I also got the Montana X-treme because of Sabotloader. So I like to try a lot of different things. Some rifles are protected with one thing and some with others. I guess that the advantage of have a few dozen rifles to play with.
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
O.K., BB is on the sideburnner now, I can always use what I have for the outside of the barrels. I'll try the MX when it arrives. Again, I have been told not to use petroleum based oils in the barrels of ML's, am I misinformed? When do you use the oil in the barrel, after cleaning of course, but do you swab the bore dry befor reloading? It has never interfeared with your powder?
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Where did you get the Birchwood Casey Sheath? I'l get some, I like to try new things. Also do you use (Dry-Lube) on your trigger Mechs.? Any advice on this one. I use the Moly Lube Dry Aerosol.......
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
A light coating of a good preservative such as Breakfree CLP, RemOil, Eezox,Sheath, or..... WD-40. Swab the oils out with a couple of alcohol patches followed by a couple of dry patches. Store the breechplug out of the rifle if feasible. Install after removing the preservative.
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Thank's for the tip, I want to treat my 2 new ACCURA's with the best and utmost care. Also, I should hear from Mark on the second ACCURA with the Barrel-Lug outcome soon, I'll let you know. Oh, I forgot to tell you,,,,after ordering My Wife the second ACCURA, she does'nt want it!!!! She saw that they could be had in .45 so that's what she wants now. I tried to talk her out of it, but you know women. I guess it will be fine for her as she's only 110lbs and usually only shoots out to 80yds. It's just now Im gonna have to get a bunch of 45. stuff. Ya got-to-keep them wifes happy. Next she'll want a new Bow!
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Breechplug
I have been told not to use petroleum based oils in the barrels of ML's, am I misinformed If you treat your bore with an oil and you are going to shoot real BP - then prior to shooting clean the barrel out with 91% alcohol - that will remeove the majority of the oil in the bore. MX is a petroleum product so it might foul your bore if you are shooting real BP. Actually I would kinda like to know if it does. There is a lot of Glycol Ether in MX so it evaporates rapidly - I do not know if it would mix with shooting real BP or not. but do you swab the bore dry befor reloading? It has never interfeared with your powder? It has never interfeared with your powder? Again I am shooting and experimenting with T7 powder |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
I ment the oil interfearing with the powder. I use, for now Pyro Pellets. I'll do the oil and alcohol thing. Im thinking of switching to loose powder to get the best accuracy possible. It seems as loose powder in the 120gr measurement is the standard for best accuracy, give or take.
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Breechplug
I ment the oil interfearing with the powder. Im thinking of switching to loose powder to get the best accuracy possible. It seems as loose powder in the 120gr measurement is the standard for best accuracy, give or take. In actuality(sp) your gun will tell you what it likes best when start shooting a powder/projectile combination. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Tell her you might consider a .45 in the Apex (for her.. ;) ;);) :D).
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Yes it looks nice, My wife had me look it up and show her after she saw the reply from you. I told her to hold off untill spring or mid summer rolls around as they may come outwith something even better. I wish CVA would put a Laminated Stock on the ACCURA like they did for the Kodiak Pro. My second ACCURA will be here tomorrow, cant wait to get the Ultimate Slam Scope on her. What powder/sabot combination did your ACCURA like the best?
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Ordered some Casey Sheath today, also got some of the Montana XTreme Gun Oil, bought a few of each. The XTreme Bore Conditioner should be here soon. Back to the Casey Sheath....now that yu have been using the casey sheath, and the XTreme BC, when do you use each? Or are you just using one or the other? Do you use the XTreme when shooting and them the CS after cleaning? Also what do you use on your trigger mechs.? I have been using Molly Lube, it's a dry film aerosol lube, any thoughts on that one?
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
In truth, I haven't fired that many different combos but both of my Accura like the 300 grain .452 XTP in Harvester Crushed Rib sabots and the 10mm 200 grain XTP in blue MMP sabots. I only tried 90 and 100 grains volumetric charges of BH209 and the rifle (and I agreed with it) seemed to favor the 90 grain charge. When the weather warms a little, I'll play with some more loads.
I would have bought one in .45 if they had offered it without the thumbhole stock. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Thank's for the infor. Yes, Im not a big fan of the Thumbhole either. I want my second ACCURA to be the long range one, have you tried any load a little hotter, say 120gr and up. I want to reach out and touch them darn Coyotes,and the occasional Big Buck standing in the cut Corn Field.recoil is no problem for me, but I dont want to sacrafice accuracy either.
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
How do the 90-100gr. of BH compare to the 50gr pyro pellets. I know loose powder is more hotter than the pellets. Would 120+++gr. of BH be too much?
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
ORIGINAL: cayugad Now I am fussy. And when in no hurry have been know to take a half an hour per rifle when I clean them. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Breechplug
Here is a target with velocities shot from one of my Remington's using BH-209  Here is a target with T7 velocities in about the same loads...  and this last target with a comparison of both - Shot this at the end of one afternoon as the light was running out...  To get a Pyro comparison you might reduce these velocities by 15% - that might get you in the ball park... |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Nice shooting! I have to go into town and get a few things, plus stop at the Pro Shop and see what he has for T7, not bad with 120gr T7, is that the highest recommended load for T7, could you go to 150gr.? Or would that be over kill and you'd suffer on accuracy? Im 6'6'' and 240lbs, I like to walk softly but carry a big stick, ML that is. Sometimes them darn Coyotes like to run off 200+yds then stop and look back, I'd like to suprise them!
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Breechplug
T7, not bad with 120gr T7, is that the highest recommended load for T7, could you go to 150gr.? Sometimes them darn Coyotes like to run off 200+yds then stop and look back, I'd like to suprise them! |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Would that be a pistol bullet? and do I have to get the sabots seperatly? or do they come togeather? I have been getting the 240gr XTP Mags from TC in the bubble pack of 30, I know what they do for making a big hole. You cant beat the XTP's.....
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Breechplug
It is a pistol bullet (40 cal) and you would need to get buy sabots separately. If you were going to try this combination - I would suggest a2 packages of Harverster blue 'crush rib' sabots. I use the MMP 40/50 cal blue sabot but I know that it will fit my guns, but a little tight so the Harvesters would be a little easier to load.100 grains of T7 gets me about 2100 fps with the 200 grain XTP's... |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Separately. Check Midway, Midsouth, Graf's and others for best pricing http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=1916&dir=278|281|293|32 3|672
Be best to get them from one place but you can order direct from MMP or Harvester for your sabots. |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
just looked through Cabela's Spring Shooting Catalog and found them, 10mm cal. 400"dia. 200gr XP-XTP right? $20.99 for a box of 100.....they dont have the blue sabots just the MMP and Harvester's, for the harvester's wich one....50cal/430.dia, 50cal.452.dia or the 50cal.475.dia bullet??? Thank's, Ron
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RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Breechplug
that is the correct bullet... call Alan at Harvester 800 922-6287 and order the 40/50 blue crush rib - he will mail them directly to you... product number H15040BL... PM me your address I'll send you some MMP's to try also... |
RE: What is a CRUD-RING
Thank's, I'll give Allan a call, I just looked and I have 2 bags of the MMP's that I forgot I had becasue I been buying the TC XTP's with them so I never used them. I have 2 different sizes, I'll try em all and see what works best for fit and accuracy. And while Im at the Pro shop I'll see what he has for sabots too, never looked there because I never needed them. Mabey He'll have the Blue 40/50's, he's got a-lot of stuff, mabey even the 10mm XTP's, after all it is a Pro Shop, and I should support my local Business. Better go, times a wasting, almost 5, colses at 5........I'll let you know............Ron
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