Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

When it comes to black powder, I was shooting Powerbelt bullets. I use them in a CVA Optima Pro - .50 cal. The accuracy is spot on; however, I have been disappointed with the lack of pass through and penetration. Having lost two deer over the prior two seasons, (they ran of w/ no blood trail), I am at the point where I lost confidence in the bullet. Towards the end of the ML season this year, I was letting deer walk, even as close as 50 yards. Time for a change.

To the point, I would like some recommendations for a bullet with good penetration and consistent accuracy for this gun. So far, I have the following four recommendations: 1) Hornady 44cal 240gr HP/XTP bullet; 2) Hornady 45cal 240gr XTP/MAG bullet; 3) Thompson center 50cal mag express sabots 240gr XTP bullets; and 4) and the Thompson center 50cal mag express sabots 230gr XTP. I appreciate your thoughts and comments.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Personally if you want to make sure you stop them, go to a Barnes, Nosler, or even a Speer. I personally like a Hornady .44 caliber 300 grain XTP in a harvester sabot in my rifles. I think with 100 grains of powder and that bullet it will flatten a deer. But the deer in my area refuse to cooperate unless I am walking around with an old roundball shooter.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

they penetrate just fine for me and a lot of others out there. 245-295gr use 80gr powder.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

The bullets you mention will all do better than what you were using, I have tried them, I have taken a lot of deer with XTP's I have even taken a few with PB's did not care for the problems that went with them though. I have taken to using the 250 Gold Dot it has given me excellent results out to 150 yds, I have one place I hunt where 200 to 225 yd shots are common there I use SW's 250 gr for deer. Try all the ones you like best and use the one that shoots best in your gun. Lee

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

vadeer

AMEN... Shoot them only if you have to.

The suggestions that Cayugad offered are excellent choices. I would lonlt change the order - Nosler Partition HG's, A variet of different Barnes, and the Speer Gold Dot which is often overlooked in favor of the XTP's.

I shoot Noslers for hunting and since they are so expensive - I shoot the Speers for range work and practice. I shoot a .458/300 grain (45-70)Nosler Partiton Protected Point for elk and the .451/260 grain Nosler Partition HG for deer. I callthe Speer Gold Dots a 'poor man's Nosler' as they are a bonded Uni-Cor bullet with dot in the lead that stops expansion at a certain point but allows the bullet to continue penetrating.

Cayugad found an excellent bullet also that I did not know about about. A .458/300 grain Special Purpose projectile built for the Marlin 45-70.

The next thing will to be to find the correct thickness of sabot to fit your gun.... maybe the Harvester Short black/MMP HPH-24 or if they are to tight the Harvester Crush Rib or the MMP HPH-3p-EZ...

Good luck....

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

If you need/want to stay with a conical, the Hornady FPB has been doing well in my guns and others. I took an elk with one this fall, she went about 50 yards. It is 350 grains though, so some of the suggestions are good ones if you want a smaller projectile.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

i moved a long time ago ...went to HORNADY SST very accurate on paper at 100yds, on deer no thank you ..BARNES TMZ .250 gr. all the way [i like a good blood trail ]

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Hornaday XTP's are pretty accurate for me. They're great to shoot for range work because they are cheap. But I will be using Barnes T-EZ's for hunting. Either of those bullets would be good for deer. I just like the weight retention characteristics of the T-EZ and the way it expands with the razor sharp pedals for maximum damage.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

X2

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Shoot whatever you want for fun,but when deer season rolls around,use the best bullets made for the job. All 3 of these are good choices. I shoot Noslers. if they were $2 each I would still use them,I just do not practice with them.A deer is worth a dollar to me,losing a deer is just too much to take. If you want to shoot cheap,try some Berry's

Charlie

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

+1 on the Nosler, Barnes, Speer Gold Dot. I would shoot 300g to get pass thru and I would use a Barnes MZ 300g for < 150 shooting and if I had to shoot 200 I would use the new Barnes T-EZ 300g flat based bullet. The are expensive but do the job. The Noslers in 300g flat based HG are great also. I you shoot a heck of a lot, the go with the Speer Gold Dot 300g and use it with a Crushed Rib sabot. Best Wishes on your testing and selection.
Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

I vote for theSST/SW from Hornaday or the Hornady .44 caliber 300 grain XTP. I have harvested many deer with thesetwo type bullets.

I never thought much of the Power Belts either and have read many negative reports on them!

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

I also moved away from PB's years ago. Although I taken a few deer with them the blood trails were less than desirable. I switched to 250 gr Shockwaves and have got bang-flops since. I know they are expensive but I would like to try out the Barnes TMZ 250 gr.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

For fun I shoot XTP's but when it's go time I shoot a Barnes 300gr Expander MZ in my CVA Wolf. $ cost per bullet doesn't concern me when I'm hunting.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

+1 when i hunt bullet cost means nothing to me ..and shot the best ..on the rang when i practice i have the option to use cheaper bullets..

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Try the Speer 300 gr. Gold Dot excellent bullet reasonably priced.
This last deer season was my first year using them. Got complete pass through at 125 + yards.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

did it drop on the spot ?? did you get a reasonable blood trail???

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

she only went about 25 feet.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Barnes doesn't make a 300g T-EZ. Do you mean 290g?

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Give Hornady FPBs a try. Get them now, you may find them on sale at Wal-Mart.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Barnes t-ez ...290 gr. no .300gr.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Yes, your right it is a 290g. Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

with the muzz you shoot, i agree , i would not use powerbelt hollow point BUT in HAWKINS .50 CAL FLINTLOCK ,OPEN SIGHTS , SHOOTING CLOSE,UNDER 100 YARDS.

no other bullet shoots out of mine than a POWERBELT 295/348 HOLLOW POINT loaded down...

no kick, less smoke, less noise,easy to load at 5 degrees above,no lubes,VERY ACCURATE,opens up nicely on deer at LOW LOAD,like 80 grs of 2f geox.

more deer are missed with a heavy kicking muzz.

more deer are lost shooting IN-LINE at high speeds with a POWERBELT HOLLOW POINT BULLET.;)

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

you are right on but most want those IN-LINE ones to rocket at deer.

shoot a deer close with a pb at high speed and you will be sorry.

they should market those POWERBELTS for open sight flintlocks only at low charges.

there they are OUTSTANDING,i love the dang things.

i hate recoil and these bullets open at low speeds.

no need for flat shooting high speed if you are only shooting under 100 yards or less.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Good load and bullet for 1000 to 1200 fps flintlock sighted in 2" high at 50 yards. Much more energy to 100 yards than a PRB in a 50 cal.
Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Read this new article by RW:

http://randywakeman.com/MuzzleloadingWithBarnes.htmon what Barnes work in what rifles.

This is an old artcile by Bryce Towsley:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/product-news/publication-mentions/breaking-out-of-the-mold/
but still relevant.

Finally nothing gives you more satisfaction than to do your own MLer penetration tests. The PowerBelt Kid of Butch Cassity and the Sundance Kid fame(Frontieer Gander, AKA, MountainDevil54), did that for the powerbelt and got us the magic 80g rule. For various bullets shot froma Savage, the Left Hand did a whole bunch of bullets, SST/SW, XTP, Barnes, XTP/Mag, but you can see wound Channel and fragmentation in the perma gel. You of course want "large wound channel" with little or no fragmentation, that is here:

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thre ad=3370

with a whole bunch of links titled "Ballistics Gel tests By the Left Hand".

Finally for whatever bullets you decide to test, go to Cabelas, Midway and Gambrills and read ALL the posts about each bullet, making certain that you understand why a person DISLIKED a particular bullet.

Look around at what experts shoot and why? Why does Shockey shoot Nosler? Why does Bryce Towsley shootBarnes?Why does SabotLoader like Nosler partition 260 for deer and 300g rifle bullets for elk?What depth do bullets need to penetrate to kill? Why? Is a6" of penetration enough? Why or why not? Does shoot thru matter? Why? Does putting the whole energy into the deer kill it fast than shooting thru? Does fragmentation matter? Why?

Whatwill be your most likely hunting situations? Long fields up to 200 yards or most likely < 100 yards. Am I hunting where Bang Flops is needed? Am I a good trailer? Read all the product literature on a particular bullet from the manufacturer from their public web site. Use google to find out if the bullet fragments or pencils thru without expansion.

Shoot some bullets into sand, wet newspapers, or bound phone books or newspapers. Do they fragment, expand well? Are they muchroomed out, totally wrapped around themselfvess. Why does wrapping around themselves matter? Why does Garret Bullets load a 45/70 bullet to 1500 fps with a Garrett Hammerhead for Cape Bullalo? Why is a MLer a LOT like the 45/70 in FPS, bullets, loads, terminal performance? What do the 45/70 crowd use for bullets? Why are some african PH and Alaskan Bear Guidesnow using Marlin Guide lGuns in 45/70 oaded with Garrett Hammerheads for dangerous game? Why is a 45/70 going slow better than a375 H&Hgoing fast? Why is "Big and Slow is the Way to Go" a motto of Sam Fadala, the author of the Hornady MLer Reloading Manaual. Why is Fast and small the motto of he marketingblitz of TC and Greg Ritz and most of the modern day inline manufacturers? Why was SW bullets remarketed under the TC name? Why does Greg shoot them, but he doesn't require Shockey to shootthem?
Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

hey theres a difference between randy wakeman and i.


I dont get paid to like an item ;)

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

your right!! And you don't shoot Savages either. So now ya got 2 differences. Oh he is not a PB fan, so there are 3 differences. Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

make this one #4

A PATCHED ROUND BALL CAN AND WILL KILL AN ANIMAL WHEN THE SHOOTER CAN HIT WHAT HE AIMS FOR.:D
But then again, i used a round ball that i cast from powerbelt lead, maybe thats Why.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

If you are not getting a check from CVA/powerbelts for your website by now, you need to take a marketing class! LOL

But I do hear the "inflection" in your voice, that others are paid toSAY theylike something, and you like somehthing and then try to get paid for liking it. Nothing wrong with that!

Of course you are accusing Randy of saying he likes something only because someone pays him to say it. Do you really want to go down that road?

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

:D Marketing classes would be a good idea. The cva logo just looks good on my banner, nothing else to put in that spot!

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

ccording to people i hve spoken to the fpb is gret i shoot with them but have not killed anything but paper with it yet the accuracy is about 1.75 inches at 100 with my cva with 100 grains of powder:D

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

A huge amount of information and suggestions. Thanks! On Chapman’ssuggested reading of http://randywakeman.com/MuzzleloadingWithBarnes.htm I got to thinkingabout the “Sabot fit is important” statement coupled with “Unfortunately, many manufacturers have never read Lyman's, or don't care to have consistent or uniform tolerances.” and :

TIGHT .50 Calibers (Thompson-Center, and others .4995 in. -.5015 in. barrels)
MID-RANGE BORES (Knight, some imports, others .5015 -.5025 in. barrels)
LARGER-BORES (.5025 in. - .5035 in.)

I seem to recall reading on this sight that the CVA Optima Pro’s barrels are considered "tight."Can I, therefore, assume that a Harvester Crush Rib or the MMP HPH-3p-EZ are appropriate?

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

vadeer

I would tend to agree with you that the Optima is considered a tight bore. I have no forst hand evidence of that other discussions with other owners trying to find the right sabot.

It would be my suggstion to start with those sabots you listed, if they both go down the bore OK then choose the tighter of the two. If they go down with less than two hand pressure on the rod - then I would suggest you try a Harvester Short Black or a MMP HPH-24.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

well i had the optima and an mmp-24 sabot with a 240gr xtp gave me a 6" group @ 100 yards. I went to the mmp-12 with the same bullet and my first 2 shots were touching and the 3rd was an inch and a half low of the group.

cva's tend to be in the .501 to .502" area. Or at least the ones i have owned have been.

240gr XTP in the black mmp-24 sabot and i forget if this was 100 or 110gr pyrodex P.

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

I have 5 CVA ML's and I shoot nothing but the TC 240gr. XTP Mag's, they shoot great out of CVA's and talk about devestating, they drop deer in there tracks! Some exit holes are big enough to put my fist in. They are easy loading cheap and accurate. I shoot 1 1/2" groups at 150 yds in my CVA ACCURA. Cabela's has em in the 30 pack with sabots for $13.99 I have NEVER lost a Deer using them. You wont be Dissapointed. Powerbelts, No

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

+1. Excellent advice to use the tighter of the two. Many folks take the breech plug out of their gun andthen push a bullet thru the bore with different sabots. In this way you can figure out what sabot works best in your gun with your particular bullet of choice. You must figure out what is "just right tight".Justright tight is not so tight that you have to pound thesabot and bullet down the barrel or notso loose that you can push it down with 1 hand.Just right tight is two hand with about 30 to50 lbs of force to get the bullet down the barrel. Can't tell30 to 50 lbs of force? Place your gun butt on a bathroom scale, push a bullet down with your sabot, watch the scale, when your pushing itdown it should peak somewhere, that should be between 30 and 50 lbs.
Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Barnes TSX 45843 45/70 bullet compared to a Barnes PBX 275g pistol bullet.

Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

Here is howthat Barnes45/70 TSX 300g Flat Nose bullet shot in my MLer.Doesn't look like
a "flat nose" does it, it is exactly like a .452 Barnes MZ MLer bullet.
Chap

RE: Moving away from Powerbelt bullets; Need recommendations
 

i like pictures of bullets and how they shoot out of different guns..
maybe we could start a topic at top of forum that would stay there for all to see when they want..:eek:

i think you guys that do a lot of testing etc need a place for these photos and info .


cayugad,chap, sabot others always have pictures and info.


would be nice to have that info quick at TOP so it can be obtained.

maybe someone can do this, i dont know yet how to put a picture onhere or i would start it.