When does a bullet fragment?
 

If a bullet manufacture publishes specific bullet velocities for a given bullet, does that mean if you keep that bullet within those parameters it should not fragment?
For example: I have been shooting the Hornady .430 240gr xtp these past two years with great success. Over 90 gr 777 I'm somewhere between 1700 and 1800 fps. (I'm guessing).Hornady publishes in it's velocity performance table a velocity rating between 900-1800 fps. Are we to assume that if kept within that range that bullet will perform as designed and not fragment on impact? If not, what is that information supposed to mean?

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Skopia

That should be the general assumption - but you probably already know assumptions.

There are some bullets that will perform very well beyond their published range. Remember the published range is used in the assumption that you are using them in the weapon they they are designed for.

As an example - I shoot a 10mm 200 grain XTP at near 2200 ft per second, way above the published range - yet the darn things hold together just fine in my non-scientific torture test. Can not say the same about other XTP's though.

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Bullet fragmentation is one of those hottly debated topics, that folks feel very defensive of, so please do a lot of reading to make up your own mind. I have made up mine, and I don't like any fragmenation.

It depends on the bullet, the materials made of the bullet, the jacket bonding to the bullet, etc. If your always shooting at standing deer, bow shots thru the vitals, bullet design doesn't make a difference, anything will work from PRB to Nosler Partition. In general the design parameters are for expansion primarily, not fragmentation. Most bullet makers don't advertise fragmentation above a certain velocity because they know that it hurts sales, they would rather say, a design range. A huge bullet going slow, makes big hole and kills effectively. A small bullet going fast makes 45cal hole and kills effectively. There are some that believe that a little bit of fragmentation is a good thing, like up to 25% or so, I am not one of them, since I believe it limits penetration. There are 4 factors need to take game effectively:
1) accuracy, without it you can't hit so it makes no difference, gotta have it 3" group at 100
2) penetration, at least 12", why 12" read about the FBI terminal ballistics write up, man and deer about same size
3) expansion, gets you huge wound channel, and large blood displacement and quick kill, gotta have large would channel
4) shoot thru for good blood trail.

I would say fragmentation affects penetration and shoot thru, you hardly ever see a fragmented bullet shooting thru a deer, and in general a fragmentation causes less penetration. Some believe that fragmenting bullet gives you larger wound channel and therefore is better, evidence for that they sayis a shot gun shot at close range with #4 or #2s bbs. In general that is true, however effective range of shot gun is max 40 or 50 yards or so. Most bullets shot in their design range will not fragment, however most makers don't publish their designed bullet range! All the reloading books load by caliber and make bullets designed for that caliber, which is pressure based. It takes STRONG well constructed bullets to take BIG 300 lb deer with raking shot or shoulder shot, and a 100 lb deer is easily killed with a STRONG well constructed bullet, so why not use them for hunting? Cost is one factor, accuracy is another. Most people shy away from Noslers, Barnes and other premiuum bullets because of cost or lack of accuracy with a given bullet. If your plinking stay with the XTPs and Gold Dots for that, but find a hunting load with a non-fragmenting, highly accurate, bullet. Do a lot of reading at Cabelas and Midway and Google for any bullet you choose. Once there are "several bad reports" on a given bullet, don't use it. Don't use LOADing as the reason you don't select a bullet. Find a sabot that gives you easy loading. Use hot primers with Blackhorn. Use strong bullets that don't fragment and are extremely accurate in your rifle.

Most of the general MLing population will NOT shoot different bullets into wet newspapers or sand to see how they expand. Most will NOT shoot loose power to see where the sweet point is fortheir gun. Most will not experiment with different sabots to getthe right loading pressure and bullet for thier gun.
Most will NOT want to swab between shots. Most are NOT on this MLer forum. Most will get their "general hunting information" from theirbuddies, and they will select a bullet thatis either cheap or their buddies recommend. So it goes with SW and PBs. If you do just a bit of reading, and buy 1 book. "RifleBullets for the Hunter a Definitive Study", you will find out why Craig Boddinigton shoots and expanding bullet forhis first shot at Capebuffalo, but a solid for his second. Buy the book it is an excellent read for a hunter.

http://www.riflebullets.net/

Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Excellent post, Chap.

I totally agree, fragmentation is not a good thing in a hunting bullet. Unless you're using your ML for self-defense I'd stay away from a bullet with known fragmentation issues on animals the size you plan to hunt.

Staying within the recommended velocity range is a starting point, but you can "force" bullets into fragmenting even in this range if you hit a ton of bone. You still must factor in the intended purpose when choosing a bullet, even if you're in the suggested velocity range. For example, you may want to avoid fragmentation by using a bonded bullet. However, many bonded bullets do not expand as well as non-bonded versions, so while the bonded bullet may do fine on elk it may not open well enough on a whitetail doe.

Fortunately, bullets have come a long way. There are few bullets I've really heard reliable reports of fragmentation problems. These would be Powerbelts driven too fast and light (240gr and lighter) XTPs also driven fast. Also the 250gr Shockwave fast at close range, although the other weights seem to be fine.

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Thank you. I agree about bonded not expanding as well. Agree also on XTP/SW/PB fraging on close shots. Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

I used this load in my 700ML. It was my most accurate load and bullet performance was excellent and reliable.

Charlie

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

When it comes to hunting remember one thing if you put the bullet in the right place it will do the job if you dont it wont make any difference what bullet you use. I have used every bullet mentioned and was careful to use them in the velocity range they work well in and place them carefully for a quick kill. They all work acceptably some were better than others but that's to be expected, I just don't find as much difference between some of the extremely high priced bullets and the normal ones as some people seem to. The two things that are most important in my opinion are that the bullet is accurate and that you shoot it accurate. A lot of bad raps are hung on bullets because some one got excited and did not hit the right spot. Lee

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

The search for the elusive magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop every time continues.

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

It does, but not for gut shots for chest cavity shots. Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

More magic bullet info:

http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/July03/july03.htm

Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

it does continue, but only for frontal hits on bone. Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Here is John Nosler's search and the search continues today!
Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

It does, Terminal Ballistics article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics

Chap
Selecting bullets for terminal performance
The standard medium for testing bullets for performance on tissue is ballistic gelatin. Tests have shown that properly prepared and calibrated 10% (by mass) gelatin at 4 degrees Celsius correlates very closely to observed performance in the muscle tissue of living, anesthetised swine. Performance is generally graded with two factors, the maximum depth of penetration and the size of the cavity formed in the gelatin by the bullet impact. The size of the cavity represents the distance which tissue is thrown radially outward due to "splash." The penetration represents how far into the tissue the bullet will ultimately penetrate.
Unfortunately, gelatin is a poor medium for evaluating actual effectiveness. The observed "tissue splash," usually referred to as "temporary cavitation," is not an indication of terminal performance in an animal, as gelatin has a much lower elastic limit than most living tissues; a force which tears a gelatin block in half may result in nothing more than slight bruising if applied to living flesh.
Penetration figures may not be accurate. Many testers do not calibrate their gelatin. The standard calibration is 85 mm of penetration when shot by a standard .177 caliber steel bb traveling at 180 m/s (590 ft/s). Uncalibrated gelatin may show a variance of up to + or - 50% from calibrated gelatin. Further, animals' skin resists penetration much more than the muscle tissue which gelatin simulates. Human skin tissue on the torso resists penetration as much as 50 mm (2 in) of muscle, and horses' skin is the equivalent of approximately 200 mm (7.9 in).
For a quick incapacitation, a hit to a vital, blood-bearing organ or the central nervous system is needed, so a bullet that will penetrate to the depth required for such a hit should be chosen. When hunting groundhogs, for example, a bullet that expands quickly to form a large cavity with minimum penetration would be the best choice. When hunting deer, a bullet which penetrates deeper is required; this can be accomplished by either limiting expansion (2 times the original width is often regarded as ideal), or by using a more powerful cartridge. For hunting bear, yet more penetration is required. The pattern is, of course, that the larger the animal, the deeper its vital organs will be located, and therefore a firearm, cartridge, and bullet type should be chosen that will be able to reach the vital organs and kill humanely.
For dangerous game especially, deep penetration depth is critical; the reason for this is that the shooter cannot always choose their shots. If a hunter finds himself staring at a deer's hindquarters, it is very unlikely that he or she will choose to fire at that deer anyway, in the hopes that their bullet will be able to reach a vital organ through several layers of muscle and gut. The better choice in that scenario would be to wait until the deer decides to turn around. A lion, however, may decide to charge at a person other than the shooter, presenting a much less than optimal shooting angle.
To hit the vital organs on a large game animal requires penetrating the thick fat and muscle tissue surrounding the chest cavity, and quite often bone as well. A hard, nondeforming bullet is often chosen, though many modern rifle calibers are quite capable of killing 1,000 lb (450 kg) elk and similar-sized animals with a deforming bullet; even the venerable .30-06 is up to the task, with a powerful enough load. Elephant hunters normally attempt to shoot for the brain, which is much smaller than the size of the elephant's head, and so must be targeted quite precisely, and require a firearm and bullet capable of punching through a foot (300 mm) or more of tough, albeit hollow, bone and reaching the brain.

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Still looking....Interesting maybe these bullets are more magic than others:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/product-news/publication-mentions/breaking-out-of-the-mold/




still looking....
Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

excellent post and links Chap! Shed some light on things.
Doug

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Chap I think you're missing falcon's point.

His point is that most bullets available today will do just fine if the hunter does their part. No bullet, not even beer-can-exit-hole Barnes Expanders, will turn a poor shot into a bang-flop.

The Shockwaves you don't like have about an 80%+ bang-flop rate in my hands, and none make it more than a few yards.

While I don't shoot Barnes currently I have friends who do and their experience is not drastically different, most deer go down quickly and a few go a little further.

There's a price to pay for gaping wide bullets, and that is under-penetration. It's simple physics -- as the frontal area of the bullet increases, it takes more energy to drive it through a given length of tissue. I have exactly 2 Shockwaves that were recovered from deer; my Barnes buddy has a few more of the Expanders. He's a good shot so the deer didn't go anywhere but the exit rate was lower as one would expect. My only personal experience with Barnes is out of a 12-gauge, I shot them one year and had a massive bullet failure and so did a buddy so I switched to Federals.

I think they're good bullets, but on deer-sized game I think the differences between bullets are massively over-hyped...

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

I agree the hunter has to do his part and there are no magic bullets for gut shots. I was just giving some of the other readers new to this forum (Falcon isn't new) some things to read up on (see the above post from dalberg). I know Falcon knowshis stuff on bullets. I also agree with your frontal areas assessment, in fact Sam Fadala, who is the author of the Hornady MLer Manual is a huge "large meplat fan", as are many other well known folks, they tend to come from the "traditional side of the house", rather than the Toby Brides Long Range MLing side of the house.

I think most bullets will kill deer no problem, your right it is all about shot placement. Good shot placement ensures a quick kill. However good shot placement in the field in hunting situation is not always possible because of movement of the deer, no rest, etc. That is when bullet construction pays for itself, because if you hit bone then you get penetration into the vitals. So for "bow shots", I would agree massively over hyped. For raking shots, bullet construction is paramont and very very important, and that is where the hype makes a difference.
Best Wishes,
Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Thanks.

That is exactly my point. The Hornady XTP and SST bullets do a really good job on deer sized game
if you do your job. Many of thosewhodid not do their job do not recognize that fact that they did not do their job. So theycontinue to search for that magic bullet.

The Nosler story is a short one. He coped a Germandesigned bullet that had then been in use for 50 years. :D

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Back in Oct one of my buddies was ML hunting on my place, he shot a nice 8pt at a range of 30 yards, because of the smoke he couldnt see the buck run off after the shot. He was using a 240XTP over a charge of 90gr of RS, he looked for the deer, but couldnt find any blood or the deer. Later that morning he came and got me to help him look. I found a few drops of blood so we set out tracking, it was him, me and our two sons looking now. We follow a light blood trail for about 300 yards and I do mean light, sometimes the buck wouldnt bleed for a 10 to 20 yard stretch. Never did the blood trail open up. We finally ran out of blood, wespread 50 yards apart and started driving thru the thick brush that this buck had went into.We done this until 5pm, but never found his buck. He swears he shotthe buck right behind the shoulder, maybe he did I dont really know, but i kinda have my doubts about that. I have never shot the XTP's, but I have helped track about a 10 deer thathave been shot with them. Somewe found some we didnt, but i noticed thatsome we found the bullets had fragmented and the deer had ran a long distances.Most didnt hit the deer where they thought they had, some were hit right in the shoulder and the bullet had fragmented, some thought they hit the shoulder when they had actually hit the gut. Up till the last few years I have always used the big heavy bullets like the 430gr super slugs and the 370gr TC maxi and I have had no problems with these bullets, but the range seemed to be limited. Lately I have been wanting to increase my range so i dropped weight and changed bullets. I started out with the 250gr PB over 110gr of pryodex p out of my Optmia elite,I shot 2 does in Ohio in 07, one at a range of 18 yards, one at 75 yards, both bullets performed perfectly. I have since switched to the 250 SW bonded, because of the reports of fragmention from the PB bullets.I shot a 8pt at 50 yards this year with it, over the same pwd and it performed perfectly. I do know that if you push a light bullet to fast fragmention is the result. I have handloaded rifle shells for 24 years and past experience has taught me that. There are a lot of folks on here with way more muzzleloading bullet experience than I have, I read all that they write and take it in.There are so many conflicting reports on bullets, bullets work great for this person and not for the next. It makes it really difficult to decide what bullet to use. I am gonna try some different bullets in the off season to see how they shoot, but as far hunting goes I am gonna stick to the bonded SW until something happens to that changes my mind.
Good luck
Greg

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

I have only shot 1 deer with an XTP, but I cut my teeth with the older HTP design. I killed a lot of deer with it, my experience was the front mushed up and the base drove the bullet through with no remarkable damage (85gr pyrodex). Often little blood. I have better luck with SW, they open further.

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

i have shot several deer with a barnes bullet as well as my hunting partners. we have only recovered 3 bullets the rest ended up in the dirt. i have never seen or heard of a lack of penetration because of prontal surface on a barnes bullet. now the accuracy of a barnes bullet is not as great as say a shockwave in my experience. i assume it's due to the lack of setback in the barrelupon firing. but for shots within say 125yds this minor lack of accuracy is not an issue as long as your shot is steady and you do you job.

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Amen, that is my intent, not to denegrate Falcon or start a bullet war. We all have our passion(s) on what things work for us and why. Blessings,
Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

There are any number of good bullets out there that will do a fantastic job on deer anddeer sized animals and i will not knock them. May even try a couple of themsome day. Shoota deer sized animal right and a PRB will do a fantastic job. Shoot them wrong and the best heavy conical will probably not get it done.

When Lewis and Clark made their trek across the NW US they encountered thenastiest animal that ever inhabited the great plains. The plains grizzly bear could catch a running buffalo and was the embodiment of mean:They would come after a man 100 percent of the time.Those bears gave the Lewis and Clark expedition fits. The expeditionwas chased into riversmany times bythe bears. They shot one 11 times before it died. Lewis and Clark really did needa heavy conical.

That bear has long been extinct.

i once had the displeasure of tracking a hog that a friend gut shot with his.300 Win Mag and a 180 grain bullet. Now that bullet developswell over 3,000foot pounds of energy at the 75 yard range where theboar was shot. The hog did not even stumble at the shot.Friendinsisted thathe had missed but i saw dust fly off the big boar and made him go after the animal.That hog went for over a half mile, bleeding little before we jumped it out of a plum thicket. Friend gut shot it again and the hog went about 200 more yards before it expired.

My fine friend claimed not to know how to field dress a hog and wanted me to do it.Had a better idea; gave him instructions in field dressing a hogwhile he gagged with every breath: That hog had been eating wheat and was filled with green stinky goo.He still sometimes hunts with me but not for hogs. Then i gut shot one last winter, but i got it.

Peace

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

Amen brother. Chap

RE: When does a bullet fragment?
 

This is a very interesting study on Bullet Fragmentation:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/lead/bulletstudy/resources/publicsummary.pdf

see page 4 on bullet fragmentation. Good read on wound channel and as close to a statistically designed study as I have seen. Wildlife depts are concerned about lead in meat, Hunters for Hungry Program, etc to the public. Good pictures of bullet design.
Chap