shockwaves
 

I have seen alot of writings in here about how power belts bullets should not be used with over 90grs of powder. I shoot 110grs pyrodex p out of my optima elite 50 cal, so this past weekend i bought some tc shockwaves 250gr superglide bonded spirepoints. I was throughly impressed with the accuracy of these bullets. My groups were within an inch at 100 yards and and when backed off to 200 yards my groups were within a 4 inch group. What i want to know is if anyone out yonder has any experience with how well these bullets perform on deer? Do they fragment at close range? Do they expand well at the longer ranges? Any information that might be useful.
Thanks a bunch
greg

RE: shockwaves
 

The bonded version is good, from what I have read. I know exactly what you mean by the accuracy of the SW, I shot my only 5 group all touching with that bullet. They are one accurate bullet. As for penetration, expansion and shoot thru the bonded are better in the 250g, because the unbonded 250 fragment bad. The definitive test for me was done by the LeftHand on the Savage forum, here are the results:

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thre ad=6223

his conclusion is the 300g unbonded SW is superior to the 250g bonded. Read all his bullet tests:

Baliistic Gel Tests by thelefthand
http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1202260559 (250g bonded SW, your bullet)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1202258389 (250g SST)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1202426992 (250 bonded SW again)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1202426240 (250g SW with 3/4" pine board rib simulation)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1202170673 (.17 Remington 25g HP)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1203185985 (TMZ 245g)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1204079792 (250g SST, 2x4 oak)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?....read=1206923789 (300g bonded SW)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.c.cg....read=1206924145 (300g SST)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.c.cg....read=1206924572 (290g TMZ)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.c.cg....read=1206924946 (300g XTP Mag)

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thre ad=6222 (300g bonded SW)

He tested 250g and 300g bonded and unbonded SW. Bottom line is the 300 unbonded is the best for whitetail based on his tests.

I believe your problem will be with 250g bonded is non-expansion on close rib/bow shots and pencil shoot thru, i.e. shoot all the way thru without expansion. Therefore long trailing job and deer that run 150 and 200 yards, they will die of course, but it is hard to follow a high hit in the lungs with no expansion.
Chap

RE: shockwaves
 

In my experience with Shockwaves (250 grain) I have not seen any bullet fragementation and my deer have all been boom flop. I shot a doe at 5 yards one year and she went down hard. The bullet was a pass through and was not recovered.I was as still as I could be and she just stopped were the gun was aimed. Just lucky. I have shot deer at 70 and 100 yds and they all fell within 10 yards of being hit. All have been pass throughs. I use a 300 grain bonded bullet for hogs when I get the chance to goto Texas and it drops them in their tracks. Great bullet and no problems. All bullets are up in cost so expect to pay more but worth it in the end. I shoot a Traditions with 100 grain pyrodex pellets, 250 grain shockwave orginals with supplied sabots, Remington Kleenbore 209 primer, I do not fire a primer before loading just use the clean barrel and it's right on. From what I've seen on power belts I'd stay away, too many deer lost.

RE: shockwaves
 

I have not shot anything with them. I have read the reports of how some like them and some hate them. I still think it boils down to shot placement. Would I use them? In a heart beat, and I fully intend to hunt with them this year as I have a Wolverine that really likes them.

RE: shockwaves
 

I used them a couple of times last year in my Omega. I dropped a Mulie at about 70 yards . He never took a step, he was just knocked down and didn't move.. I have been practicing with them in my Triumph. They are extremely accurate out to 200 yards. That's the farthest I've shot them. I have shot both 250's and 300's. Bonded and regular. I like the 250 bonded personally. I plan on hunting with them during rifle season. My wife is shooting 295 gr. Powerbelts in my Genesis and always 100 grains of 777.I've taken 7 or 8 deer with that combination. You can shoot powerbelts with more than 90 grains,I always have. I switch to conicals and round balls in my traditional guns during Muzzleloader season and for my Refuge hunt..I'll let you know the results of the Shockwaves in a week or so as Doe season is Oct. 4th. I'm looking forward to venison steak that night Lord willing

RE: shockwaves
 

All bullets will fragment, if you push them faster than they are designed for both centerfire and muzzleloaders...

I have killed 8 deer with the standard Shockwaves and my hunting buddy has killed 5 more...Ranges are from 10 steps to 143 yards...

If anything, the Shockwave is a little "hard"...With lung shots,they run 80-125 yards, almost always exit, but the blood trail can be sparse...
My gun loves them and they do shoot flatter than the PowerBelts and 300gr Barnes MZ that I used to use...
If shots are within 125 yards, I'd go with the Barnes...I have farms with soybean fields, so some shots run longer than the norm...

I shoot 90grs of Pyrodex R-S and my buddy shoots 90grs of 777...

The pics that Chapman put up show a velocity of 2400fps...I'm assuming that's out of a Savage, with smokeless powder to reach that velociity...
I'm thinking that's where the fragmentation comes in...You won't reach that velocity with 100grs of black powder, Pyrodex or 777...I'd bet it would
be closer to 1800fps...

So...With a Savage and smokeless powder and the higher velocities, I'd shoot the bonded...With the other black powders, I'd go with the standard
Shockwaves...

btw...My deer don't usually run...I pop them in the shoulder and don't have to worry about the blood trail...

RE: shockwaves
 

Blood trail can be sparse is not good for many, I hunt properties near horse farms and can't risk a nice buck jumping the fence and dying in the middle of that horse farm.

Your correct on the Savage, your corrected on FPS of mine with 4198, however back east here I like 5744 which is about 2000 fps. The hardness of the head is the issue, it doesn't open on lungs, kills them no doubt, but sparce blood trails is not good.

You know exactly how to hunt with that bullet, just like Frontieer Gander know how to hunt with PBs, normal guys buying a Triumph and shooting 3 pellets are going to loose deer on bow shots with the SW. The are a most accurate bullet, but I believe they have the two issues I mentioned above. You yourself said they are "hard", that is not good on bow shots, which is where mosts normal guys shoot for. Chap

RE: shockwaves
 

Well, for what it's worth, I've never had any trouble with the tiny 200g SST/Shockwaves killing deer:)

Took 4 last year at 150, 50,40, and 35 yards. Bullet traveling at 1950fps muzzle velocity. All heart-lung shots. 3 boom-flops, and the buck at 150 yards took a couple of steps and keeled over;)

The hydrostatic shock was just like my 30-06, jellified both lungs, pass thru on all but the 35yarder(quartering away-WHAT a MESS[:o]).

RE: shockwaves
 

gleason.chapman
I believe that each bullet has what I would like to call an efficiency range; for instance the power belt works good from 1200 to about 1500 fps the 250 Gold Dot works good from 1800 to 2100 fps the new FPB works good from 1700 to 2000 fps and the SW and SST work good from 1900 to 2200 fps. Of course this is just my opinion from about 40 deer taken with a muzzle loader and a bunch of testing with several different mediums, I also believe that there are very few "bad" bullets on the market today its just that people insist on using them out side the parameters that they work well in. I also have come to believe that these limits have to be established by testing and actual use on live animals because the figures put out by the companies that make them do not appear to apply to muzzleloading rifles. What do you think ? Lee

RE: shockwaves
 

Well you know me always on the outside looking in.... I have nothing against SST/SW's at all but.... what is the point - at ML speeds and ML ranges- they are a gimmick (I no that is harsh) but the reason they were built in the first place was we (the shooting public) believed you needed a pointy bullet to hunt with a ML - like a centerfire bullet. What about all these guys that hunt and shoot just as well and often just as far with those big old hunks of lead - traveling a whole lot slower

If your shooting beyond 200 yards they ceryainly might be an advantage but how many normal ML shooters can or shouldreally beshooting that range? Does the SST/SW type bullets give a lot of a false sense of power and range. There are such better and more effictive bullets available to choose from that give excellent terminal performance from 10 to 200 yards.

I have said this before and I truly believe it - thebulletthat isthe best bullet in the world for shooting a piece ofpaper accurately may not be the best hunting bullet to shoot an animal withat all.

We have a respondsibilty to be more than .5 MOA with a bullet while hunting.

OK - I am off my soap box - sorry

RE: shockwaves
 

But then again...The tally of Dead Deer and Hogs,and personal experience(Wisdom), tells an accurate story;)


.

RE: shockwaves
 

I like the 250gr Superglide unbondedshockwaves in my Omega.I am getting 1.5 groups at 100 yards. I know I can do better using powder. (100gr) The bullet performance on deer is exception with both IMO.I took my 295gr HPpowerbelts and tossed them in my draw. They just don't group to my liking and the bullet performance is marginal.

RE: shockwaves
 

Sabotloader
That make allot of sense.
I am the first one to fall pray to advertising hype and to try the LATEST & GREATEST when it comes to hunting but sometimes newer isn't better.
I have some of just about all the popular bulletts out there but none of the all lead to try,but I will.

case in point and I'm not trying to start a broadhead debate,to each his own in everything.
I was at my hunting lease night before last,I shot a doe with my Oneida ,everynight when I sign out I look on the board and see if anyone else is still out there,if there is I wait for them to come in.
I dont want to leave someone out there that may be hurt or need help in some way,this guy comes in LATE with a sad look on his face,I said what happened?
He said,I shot a buck but cant find him,did you find the arrow I said?,yes,can I see it.
All green smelly goop.I said,you gut shot him,NO WAY he said,WAY,I said.He told me the story and what happened was,he was shooting one the latest and greatest mechanical broadheads with the blades facing forward and he had a severe quartering shot.One of the blades deployed,the others didn't,causing the arrow to take an almost 90% turn and gut shoot the animal.
He looked at my doe and said wht did you shoot,I said,I shoot a neat thing called an ARROW HEAD. It has a sharp point and one big blade that is sharp on both sides,they have been working for 1000's of years.

Sometimes newer and more techinical isn't better.
But I guess thats how we learn is by trying new things.

I guess I just talked in a big circle.
Oh well,thats me,I see both sides.

RE: shockwaves
 

sabotloader
I guess I do see a point, while I do like accurate bullets [ the best bullet in the world is worthless if you dont hit some thing in th right place with it] I have used SW's for many years and never had any of the problems I have heard of, they hold their velocity better for long range shots which I worry about more than the flatness of trajectory. The 200 gr is really an exceptional bullet, I have used it on a lot of bear and boar and it has always done a fine job, I used the 250 gr gr on several deer and it worked fine very similar to the 250gr Gold Dot. I tried the 300gr bonded on a big hog and got more penatration and less expansion than I wanted so I suspect that it is designed for elk or bigger size game. Iguess I like them for my spot for two hundred yard shots better than regular hunting and the fact that in my Triumph they hold the same POI as the Gold Dots out to 125 yards, but as long as the velocity is kept up to around 2,000 fps at thePOI they have done well in use for me. Lee

RE: shockwaves
 

Hogs and deerare notgelatin, clay or boards. Hogs and deer are living animals that require a properly placed shot if one is going to humanely dispatch the animal. i could care less whether the bulletleaves an exit hole. When the shot goes off the animal is going down in its tracks 95% of the time.

Shot a hog in the guts with a 240 grain XTP back in February: My first gut shot animal in years.The range was 120 yards. Hated that the animal suffered for the 30 or so minutes it took me to findand kill it: I often think about it.The muzzleloader bullet is not made that wil reliably turn a gut shot into a bang flop.

The 250 grain SST/Shockwave works for me and i see no need to change.

RE: shockwaves
 

I agree that there are few bad bullets out there only bad info on how to use them (150g for the PB at www.powerbelt.com), and I certainly defer to your wisdom and experience with the SW, since I am not a SW user, and you have 40 kills. I did evaluate the SW for my use in the Savage, and I was going to use it based on accuracy, in the 300g version, then I found the Parker Ballistic Extrement and it was just about as accurate, but expanded better (the nose was not as hard), so I used them last year. The PBEwere OK, but I did have some fragmentation on a frontal shot on a doe, so I am going Barnes Origonal this year and I am expecting a lot of good performance from that bullet in my Savage. The gentleman that posted asked for any and all info on SW, I was trying to steer him to the 300g SW, since I believe it is a superior bullet to the 250g SW without loosing much trajectory.

As for your shooting range guide on bullets, I believe your expansion range is pretty accurate on the high end, but I believe you could shoot the GD harder and some do in theSavage.

I also believe Sabotloader is onto something, with accuracy vs Terminal Performance. You can have a very accurate bullet, but it not have good terminal performance. When it comes to terminal performance, you want expansion on meat not bone and you want >>deep<< penetration. How much is enough for "deep penetration"? In articles referenced by Randy Wakeman on bullet killing for Dr. Martin Frakel, Frakel said that it takes 12" of penetration to kill a person, that is also true of a deer, since the are of similar weight class/size and chest cavity thickness. Sowe need a bullet that expands welland gets at least 12" into the animal tokill it quickly. With regard to quick kills, having an animal run all the time100 or 150 yards is not quick kill. I believe I have read several people who have had non-quick kills with the SW, because they shot thru and there was a lot of tracking to be done---I recall a big black bear and that has gotta be not fun---going after a blackbear that has been shot and it might have shot thru and not killed it quickly---accurate as heck, but little expansion. To me that is not a "good bullet", it may be the most accurate bullet on the market in most guns, and if they soften up the head/tip I think it would be excellent. This article swayed me:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/Parker%20BE%20TC%20SW%20shot%20into%20ballistic%20 gel.pdf

from SW to PBE, see what he said about SW:

heard mixed stories about their perormance. Anyway, you don't hear about issues with Barnes TMZ, MZ, TSX, yata and you don't hear about issues with Nosler Partions or Gold Dots, some of the other bullets have issues on use in various MLers.Best Wishes,
Chap

RE: shockwaves
 

gleason.chapman
Well,the expansion of all hollow point and soft point bullets is a combination of design and velocity on impact.
while I don't doubt that it is possible to run into a bad [non expanding] bullet in any brand and it will happened should we condemn the whole lot? The only case of that kind I have actually personally seen was a club member that called for help tracking he shot a deer with a 300gr bonded SW and was having trouble following it the deer had a neat round hole right behind the fore leg and when I tracked it down it had gone about 100yds the neat round hole went clean through the deer.
I ask him to show me what he was using turns out my daughter used more powder when she was 12 ears old!
It does not suprise me that some people have these problems when you hear about the size powder load they use when I run into that I always recommend PB's which will shoot good and expand wel with 70 gr or more but you can not load them up to much. I personally believe less than 110 gr of a powder that gives a decent velocity like 777 or BH is to light for SW's. I actually prefer the 250 Gold Dot for normal shooting but there is one spot I hunt where I need 220 yd capability in two directions and when it comes to that 120 gr BH and a 250gr SW or 125 gr BH and a 200gr SW will remain my load. Lee
Got a unlimited town permit for bow again this year. Hope I get some good chances to use it the wife is going to the hospital for an artificalknee on the 7th of Oct so I have 5 days to hunt before I start taking care of her, hope shes back on her feet in a couple weeks after the operation they say thats possible if there are no complications.
Lee

RE: shockwaves
 

I hope she recovers quickly and completely, I will pray for that. I switched to a cross bow this year (it is legal in Va) and have not got one yet, only small ones in range. Best Wishes on your bow hunting,
Chap