Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

Read all about the guns so now I am looking at bullets and powder.

1. The bullets all seem the same to me except for sabot vs. powerbelt types. What is the fundamental difference between the two and which one works better performance wise.

2. In my 30-06 i shoot a 165 grain bullet that blows the other side out of 200 pound hogs. Why do the muzzleloaders need up to 400 grain bullets? It seems like I am throwing a baseball at them.

3. My 30-06 will change grouping by several inches if I go to a 150 grain bullet. If I use the 115 grain it is off by almost a foot. When you guys pick the weight of your bullet what do you use to determine the most effective weight for you to use? I assume that if I change weights my point of impact will vary dramaticaly.

4. It seem that 777 is the prefered powdercharge but are there other ones that are better. I have read a bit about 209h?

5. About how many rounds should I be expecting to shoot before my rifle settles into one that it likes.

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

1. The bullets all seem the same to me except for sabot vs. powerbelt types. What is the fundamental difference between the two and which one works better performance wise.

A sabot is a combination of a plastic wad with a pistol or rifle bullet inside the wad. Much like a shotgun shell only of course instead of shot, you have a bullet. As the wad advances up the barrel the rifling causes it to spin which in turn spins and stabalizes the bullet. After the combination exits the barrel ... again, the sabot wings open and the bullet is released as the wad fall to the ground some 15-35 yards in front of the shooter. The powerbelt is a conical full bore sized projectile. On the bottom is a plastic cut which acts to protect the base of the powerbelt. This entire thing spins on its flight out of the barrel and the plastic cup soon falls off the base.

We have Frontier Gander that swears by Powerbelts. He feels as long as they are shot at moderate speeds the bullet performs perfect and is a good hunting projectile. Others have claimed the bullet splatters when it hits. Perhaps too fast? Maybe bone..

Which works better will depend on the amount of powder behind it, the distance to the targets, and how good of a shot you are. Both of them will work fine if used properly.

2. In my 30-06 i shoot a 165 grain bullet that blows the other side out of 200 pound hogs. Why do the muzzleloaders need up to 400 grain bullets? It seems like I am throwing a baseball at them.

When you talk about the 400 grain bullets, you are talking a decrease in velocity. They are not producing the speeds of your 30-06 by any means. So if the projectile is slow, you like more weight. Some people shoot a 200 grain Shockwave and push them 2000 fps and get excellent results, penetration, and expansion. All of this is a trial and error and only your rifle will know what it likes and dislikes. Also you can style your projectile for the animal you hunt. For hogs, some like the large conicals because of the knock down power. They shoot 70 grains of 3f powder and blow through the hogs anyway. Others like the copper jacket Barnes or Nosler and shoot them fast and use the excellent expansion and penetration to bring down their game. Its all a matter of choice. You do not NEED a 400 grain projectile. It is a matter of choice.

3. My 30-06 will change grouping by several inches if I go to a 150 grain bullet. If I use the 115 grain it is off by almost a foot. When you guys pick the weight of your bullet what do you use to determine the most effective weight for you to use? I assume that if I change weights my point of impact will vary dramaticaly.

So will muzzleloaders. Change any part of the load and you can change your group. Swab the barrel and don't swab the barrel, you can change your group. Shoot on a hot VS a cool barrel and you can change your group. All of this you learn along the way. Also, your rifle might like a 250 grain bullet and hate a 300 grain. You learn all of this as you learn your rifle. This is seldom a purchase a rifle, pick a pack of bullets off the shelf, and go hunting experience. That is what makes these so much fun.

4. It seem that 777 is the prefered powdercharge but are there other ones that are better. I have read a bit about 209h?

777 is a great powder. Hot, powerful, dependable and easy to clean. The 209 is getting some excellent reviews but I have not shot any yet. Also the rifle you select needs to have an ignition suited to 209 powder. Some rifles hangfire with the powder. Others act flawless. Which rifles? The powder is too new to make a list of the good VS the no so good.

5. About how many rounds should I be expecting to shoot before my rifle settles into one that it likes.

I have taken new rifles out to my range and by the end of the day had a hunting load for them. I have had others that just did not want to cooperate. For instance, get a Triumph, load 100 grains of 777 2f, a 250 grain Shockwave, and a good primer, and I will bet the rifle will shoot well. If your a good shot and you swab between shots. That load is kind of made for that rifle. Take a Knight rifle, load 100 grains and a 250 grain or 300 grains Barnes Expander or Knight Red Hot (same bullet) and I will guess again, your rifle will be able to shoot just fine. But say you try a 240 grain Cheap shot. You might have to play with powder charges from 70 - 120 grain to find the on to make it shoot good, if it will shoot good. All a matter of trial and error.

Some rifles shoot good right out of the box. Some take time to decided what they want to do. It might depend on a lot of things, but to say 100 rounds.. is impossible. I will say, the better the rifle quality, the faster they tune in.

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

Could not have said it any better Dave 100% on the nose !

Ron





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RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

Well I am not quite sure what you are asking about fundimental differance the PB puts lead against the barrel and is a big soft lead bullet best used at about 12or 13 hundred fps [80 gr] the saboted bullet is completelyenclosed back and sides with only the front open and is a smaller caliber than the boreand is usually a jacketed bullet and is normally shot from 1500 to 2300 ft per second.

They dont, its a matter of what people like to a certain extent; I have used a 200 gr 40 cal Shock Wave to take deer bear and boar with excellant results and it is also the flatest shooting to my knowledge. I sight mine at 3" high at 100 and it hits 4 inches low at 200 which is about as far as I care to shoot off hand.

That can vary from person to person, I want a well constructed bullet that will open but hold together and penatrate 15 iches or more, what groups best in your gun should determine what you chose from.

777 is popular and gives good velocity not quite as good as BH209 in my favorite gun with my favorite load there is 200 fps differance; the other big differance is the crud and the crud ring, plan on cleaning after every shot with 777 most of us have to there are a few that dont have to, but no one has been able to define why or why not. with BH209 you dont worry about cleaning between shots it is not only not necessary but you wil get better groups if you dont.

It sounds like you are talking about break in, that will vary with what you buy and what you do, I do not advise any one to do what I do. I take about 50 strokes with a tight cleaning patch with polishing compound on it that reduces the break in to very little. It may put a bit of wear on the barrel as some say but to me that is inconsiquental.

To add a couple of comment, the power belt was vary popular at on time that date back quite a bit before sabots.
You are better off to buy the best quality in guns you can afford some of the cheap ones are just exactly that.
In bullets you may not get what you pay for some expensive ones are out date buy much better ones that are not as expensive and then there are the all copper oneswhich are vary expensive and vary good its just that since you can only kill it dead you dont really need that kind of bullet for dear or boar but they may be advisable for Grizzle bear.
A number of things also depend on weather you only want to set up for hunting or if you plan on shooting it two or three times a week like some of us. Lee

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

Snook...What range will your shots usually come at??? I feel that this is what determines the type and weight bullet you should shoot...Assuming you are hunting whitetails, you do not need a 3-400 gr weight bullet...Saboted bullets in the 240-260gr weight range give you both good penetration and flatter trajectories than the heavier bullets...In addition, most inlines are rifled at a 1-28 twist, this is the optimum twist for these weight ranges...

I don't care for 777, tried it, had the crud ring, rifle didn't like over 90gr anyway, so I shoot mainly Goex FFF or Pyrodex R-S...Other rifles might like it, mine didn't...

I have shot my Knight Disc at least 500 rounds, have had it about 8 years...I'm guessing that I have tried 8-10 different bullet/sabot/PowerBelt combinations...Two loadings are ourstanding...The Barnes 300gr MZ, the original all copper bullet and the 250gr TC/Hornady SST preform best in my rifle...The Barnes likes 100grs, the SST likes 90grs, both in eithe Pyrodex or Goex...

I'm mainly a flintlock shooter, so I have a good supply of Goex on hand...I live near a Goex distributor and it runs about 12 bucks a pound...If I buy Pyrodex, it's because WalMart has it on sale, I picked up a few pounds at 7 bucks a few years back...

I have a theory on the hollow point pistol bullets that are so populor, bullets like the Hornady XTP, Nosler, Sierra and Barnes 250 and 300...Because they are hollow pointed and have a wider tip vs the 250 SSTs, they open up faster on a deer and will give a wider wound channel and larger exit than the SSTs....But...The SSTS fly flatter...My Knight, sighted in with 90grs and the 250 SST is 2 1/2 inches high at 100 yards and 2 1/2 - 3 inches low at 150...The Barnes, sighted in 2 1/2 at 100 yards is more like 6-8 inches low at 150...The SSTs do not mushroom as much as the Barnes do on deer...I primarly use the SSTs because they shoot flatter and I hunt both in the woods and over soybean fields...To help the bullet open up and also reduce tracking, I take high shoulder shots, which drops the deer...I had several that were hit in the lungs that had a sparce blood trail and small exit hole and the deer ran 100-125 yards....

So it is a trade off as to bullet design and how flat they shoot...

My point being, if you mainly have shots within 100-125 yards, consider one of the saboted bullets with a hollow point...If you hunt fields, look at a bullet with a pointed tip (like the SSTs), so you can reach out a bit further...

Using more powder is not an option for me as my gun simply doesn't group well with higher powder charges...Being a bow hunter as well as a flintlock hunter I simply don't need a muzzleloader that will reach out there to 200 yards, I have hunted the same areas for years and set up accordingly...I reserve longer shots for my .243...:D

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

Most of the Powerbelt talk you see is from me. I shoot them because my state does not allow sabots, even if they did, i wouldnt use them due to me not liking them.

Powerbelts are Pure lead with a thin copper/platinum coating to keep your bore from leading up. If you've ever shot the powerbelts without the coating, you know how tough it is to get that stuff out. Pure lead has its limits and if you push them to hard, they like to come apart. Some years ago i shot a doe with a pure lead 385g great plains conical with 80g RS- 20 yard shot through the shoulder and found that the bullet only made it through one shoulder, started to rip if half and then came to rest on the inside of the other shoulder. With all of the tests ive done with powerbelts, 80 grains seemed to be the best for anything from the 225g .45cal, all the way up to the monster 405g powerbelt. This it based on 50 yards and under. This charge will also perform great at 150+ yards and still packs a big punch.

You can go to a lot of the high $$$$$$ muzzle loading experts and you'll find that all they say it, blah blah powerbelts are horrible, they dont perform, blah blah, they dont hold up. Basically, these guys dont even do actual tests but just go by what they read from the other guy.

Dont get caught up in that 150 grain, 3 pellet load crap, its a marketing hype and not needed. Some guys dont understand that 150g loads were meant for long range muzzle loading, 150+ yards and they try using this load with a light weight powerbelt and shoot something at 20-50 yards and complain about the bullet coming apart.

Im sure you've seen all the tests i've done on an assortment of powerbelts. So far, it looks like i am the only one to offer this info on the popular lighter weight powerbelts.

As for Powder, I prefer Pyrodex Select or Pyrodex P. Triple 7 never was consistant enough for me to use.

Choosing what bullet to use really depends on the terrain you are hunting, what kind of distance you expect to shoot. When i hunted the barren/hill country up in northern Colorado, i chose the .45 with a 225g powerbelt and 80g triple 7, this load was dead on at 100 and only 3 - 3 1/2" low @ 150. 175yards was, aim at the top of the back and you're going hope with meat.

You'll have to simply buy the certain bullet you like, give it a try with lets say, 80,90,100 grains powder and see what shot the best for you. It also depends on the muzzle loader you buy.

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

Snook, have you considered there were no 30-06s around during the time the great buffalo herds were slaughtered? ;)

A large, heavy LEAD conical will do an exceptional job of killing even at extended ranges when powered by only 70 or 80 grains of powder. Some of the better designed lighter bullets used in sabots will do NEARLY as well. :D

Might I suggest that you get the performance of your '06 detached from your thinking so far as entering into muzzleloading. Unless you want to go with one of the few smokeless choices - you are not even close to being in the samearena with the centerfires.

I suggested a combination of rifle and components that will probably get you about as much as you can get so far as range and performance, short of going smokeless.

Or, you could buy a nice White and do it right. :D



take note of this group


what isn't shown in the above is that point of impact was 32" below point of aim. A very consistent 32" below point of aim and plenty of power left to kill a buffalo, perhaps an elephant.But you would need to learn a whole lot more to deliver that load accurately than you would with your 165 grain '06.

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

Answer, you do not need 400 grain bullets for hogs.Using my cheap old CVA Staghorn;i have killeddozens of hogs with 100 grains of Pyrodex RS/or two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and the 240 grain XTP bullet. When hit right they die in their tracks. Killed a few dozen hogs with my Encore loaded with the 250 grain SST and 90-120 grains of JSG. Last week i killed threedecent sized hogs with three shots from the CVA.

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

I start hunting with ml's less then an year ago. got the bug bad. have 3 now and planning to sale my 30-06 to buy more.

I am 3 or 4 bullet/powder combos, non going over 90grs and no bullets over 295grs and powders pyrdex p, rs, and 777, I use pyrodex p the most. I have one that I testing now which is 405gr, pretty much I am shooting them because they are cheap, I cast them myself. no plans at this time to use them for hunting.

RE: Ok the moron is back with bullet/powder questions.
 

First off Snook - Quit calling yourself a moron. That just aint right. I would prefer you call yourself Black Powder Challenged...
Now, to try and answer your questions as simply as possible:
1. The bullets all seem the same to me except for sabot vs. powerbelt types. What is the fundamental difference between the two and which one works better performance wise.
A: Except for the lead ones, a Powerbelt is a jacketed bullet. Both have a 'skirt' which acts as a gas sealant upon firing to prevent blow-by (gasses moving past and around the bullet). Saboted bullets are bullets that are smaller diameter than the bore and use a sabot much like the shot wad in shotshells to fill the gap around the bullet. Sabots can generally be shot at faster velocities because of their lighter weight.

2. In my 30-06 i shoot a 165 grain bullet that blows the other side out of 200 pound hogs. Why do the muzzleloaders need up to 400 grain bullets? It seems like I am throwing a baseball at them.
A: Simple law of physics ( E=M(C*C) ) A slower bullet must be heavier to aproach the energy of a lighter faster bullet. Another way of putting it - Try hitting an open door with the tip of your index finger and see how far it moves. Then, using the same speed, hit the door with your fist. It will move much farther.

3. My 30-06 will change grouping by several inches if I go to a 150 grain bullet. If I use the 115 grain it is off by almost a foot. When you guys pick the weight of your bullet what do you use to determine the most effective weight for you to use? I assume that if I change weights my point of impact will vary dramaticaly.
A: Again this is physics. Gravity and bullet design will alter its flight. Ballisticians refer to these factors as ballistic coefficient and sectional density. Because of the 'lousy' ballistics of typical muzzleloader bullets as opposed to those of say a .308, 180 gr bullet and the burn rates of black powder vs nitro powder your POI will not be as dramatic by just changing bullet weight. However if you go from a 295 gr 50 cal Powerbelt, to a 240 gr 44 cal saboted bullet or 200 gr 45 cal saboted bulletyou will definately notice a change in POI.

4. It seem that 777 is the prefered powdercharge but are there other ones that are better. I have read a bit about 209h?
A: Muzzleloaders can be very finicky about the powders used in them as far as accuracy is concerned. Some will shoot 777, other Pyrodex RS or Pyrodex P, any of the other substitutes or FFg or FFFg black powder. Note: If you are using a flintlock, black powder should be the propellant of choice.

5. About how many rounds should I be expecting to shoot before my rifle settles into one that it likes.
A: Heck, you could get lucky and find the 'perfect' bullet/load combo your very first try. Or, you can shoot hundreds of shots before you find something your rifle likes. But IMO, that is part of the fun of shooting MLs.

Good luck