What a difference a grain makes
 

100 yards, Barnes Origonal 300g .458, Crushed Rib sabot .452, 64g of IMR 4198 Federal primer from a Savage 10ML.

About 60 degrees. Load and shoot, no waiting between shots. No cleaning between shot. Laid out 5 viles of powder, 5 primers, 5 CR sabots and 5Barnes 300g. TC SW Loading jag with XS Power Rod, short starter, with plastic Dead Center bullet starter.

5 shot groups. Here is the 64g Picture. Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Here is the 65g picture.

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Here is the 66g picture.




Everything the same, same sabot, same bullet, same primer, same loading procedure, same pressure applied to loading. CR very hard to get down the bore but not impossible. Hard to seat. I have had trouble with misfires with 4198 last year with Parker Ballistic extremes and the supplied Parker sabot, no ignition. Not enough back pressure to get ignition. No problem with the Barnes Origonals and the CR sabot. 4198 is much more kick that 5744, folks on the Savage forum report Barnes Origonals at 65g going 2350 fps. 5744 is about 2000 fps MV. I like the 4198 at 66 g, will write that down in my book.
Will also try 67g, 68g and 69g of 4198. One fellow on Savage forum shoots at 70 and says it is not bad. I only shot 20 shots today with a lead sled with 10 lbs of sand on it, and I had enough.

Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

WOW!! that is some good shooting.. amazing what a difference a little makes in a smokeless powder rifle... That would be some nasty loads with that kind of velocity to them.

I was reading on a different forum. Some of them wait as much as ten minutes between shots with their Savage. Yet your's does not seem that fussy. I wonder why some feel it necessary. Does it make a big difference in accuracy just waiting those minutes?

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Here is the other bullet I shot again today, 100 yards, Barnes Flat Nose TSX 300g hollow point, part # 45843, CR sabot, 44g of AA 5744, Federal 209a primer. These were the first 5 shots I shot today. Same procedure as above, just different powder and bullet. I like this bullet. I like the looks of it, very large hollow point, all copper, LONG, same as the MZ only a rifle bullet, I like the accuracy. I think thismaybe my whitetail bullet with the CR sabot, just move my sight over 1.5 inch and up 1.5".
Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Yes, you can definitely see the difference between a cold barrel and a warm barrel. Actually I think you can see that today, my first 5 shot were with the 5744 powder and the TSX bullet and they are nice and tight. My next 10 rounds were with the 4198 powder and Ididn't wait all between shots. I waited about 10 minutes between the 65g shots and the 66g shots--because I walked to the target, took pictures and emailed it to myself then came back to the truck and set up my next 5 shots
5 primers
5 sabots
5 bullets
5 viles of powder.
Once the barrel gets warm, the heat from the barrel softens the sabot, causing less of a gas check, causing less accuracy.

It was sunny out today. I hid my sabots below a glove not letting get warmed up. If you don't the get very warm and are very plyable, again causing accuracy loss. Shooting the Savage is exactly like hand loading and 1 g makes a heck of a difference, at least with 4198 it does. A lot of guys over on the Savage forum shoot, chase accuracy, so they wait 10 and 15 minutes between shots. I don't I am not that big an accuracy nut, I think it cost me 1/2 inch at most. I will take the 65g group any day and the group I shot with the TSX any day for hunting. I like accuracy, but I am not going to wait 15 just to get it, life is too shot. These are accurate rifles with the right sabot, but they are also very inaccurate with the wrong combo. So 1g makes a heck of a difference in this rifle, with Smokeless. I suspect 1g will not make that much difference with 777, but I have never tied it. Last time I was finding sabot fit with the Barnes Origonals, now I finding "what grain of powder" for 4198, since I have the right tight sabot fit. It is very much a science with the Savage, tight sabot, tight loading pressure, 300g bullet, just the right grains of powder, hot primer (Win or Fed) and you have a winning combo. Loose sabot, no fire or it will fire with 5744, but not with 4198. Not compressed, sometimes misfires with 5744, will definitely not fire with 4198. Very tight sabots are the norm in the Savage.
Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Chap thanks for sharing. I was looking at .458 barnes myself and with a good supply of CR sabots/h4198 I may just have to give them a go. As you have seen 4198 has potential with the 300gr buts requires you to search for the right pressure to find it's sweet spot. You maybe able to shrink those groups my bumping up a tad, my rifle liked 68-69gr under 300grs. The recoil will be up though, when developing I actually didn't notice the push but once I started fine tuning and shooting it a lot my sweet spot of 68-69grs started to beocme more noticable;). That was with the terrible tupperware stock though, the laminate is easier on the shoulder from a to z IME. We'll see how the newstock translates recoil...if i ever get it!!![:@]

I totally agree with your feelings about chasing accuracy, had my fillplus my time right now is short in supply.I amsuffering from Savage burn out actually. Misfire's I have had were with powders 4227 and RL7 (dirtypowder and didn't realize howmuch carbon build up was in the vent). Primer CCI mag 209s had half a dozen that neverstarted the fire, all I needed to toss them in the dumpster.So far nomisfire's from bullet/sabot or compression of load.

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Chap,

When you're talking grains in smokeless, is that weighed vice volume charges?

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Right, I intend to try 67g, 68g and 69g next weekend. I think I will stop there, I have heard of people shooting 73! That must be a heck of a recoil with that powder. Actually if I don't get better at 67g, 68 or 69, then I will shoot the 66g, since that is acceptable accuracy for me, it looks like right at 2", maybe a bit less, but 2" is fine with me, for hunting. I do like shooting the milder powder, it is really all I need for most of my places to hunt back east here. I am only playing with the Barnes Origonals for my Colorado hunt for elk, and I will use the 300g Barnes Origonals with a CR sabot. Not sure if I will use the 4198 or the 5744, I need to shoot the 4198 a lot before I am totally comfortable withit. Actually today was the first day I can say I shot that powder and it performed like it was suppose to with a sabot from my gun. Before today I was getting misfires with it, but I do know the reason now.

I need to drill out my breech plug, since I shot 20 times today. I find about 25-30 times is all I dare to go with it, once the hole gets really really small, I don't get reliable ignition. All in all I like he .458 bullets mated with the CR .452 sabot, sees to work good in a Savage. I predict that it will also work great in Blackhorn, since this is close to a smokeless powder in both design and fouling that it leaves in the bore. Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Very good report Chap!!! I need to organize my load testing like that!! Very good shooting!

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Yes. Must use scales. Volume doesn't work. Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Thanks. I try first to find the right sabot, because that is critical to good shooting in the Savage.You know if it isloose, it don't shoot for beans. With .458 bullets I try CR, MMP Orange and 3Petal EZ. With .452 bullets I do the MMP12 and MMP24, and crushed rib. I do like the .458 bullets better, they seem tighter. After I get "tightness" with the bullet I want to shoot, I try to find the right load of powder. I think it is about 68 or 69 with the 4198 (Skeeter said that, as have others), so I will shoot 67, 68, and 69. I like shooting 5 shot groups, when I get all 5 within 2" I think that is a good solid group. Like today, the TSX 300g "Flat Point" shot real well with 5744, so I will rename my file to "good load". I will do that also with 66g of 4198. Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

BTW chap nice shooting - nothing wrong with AA or 66gr load. 2" is most certainly MOE "minute O elk". Whether you shrink it bybumpingyou have suitable loads - mission accomplished:D!

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Agreed,I found acouple of MOE yesterday 5744 to 150yardsand 4198 to 200 yards is what I think. Need to try them at 200 now. See below for how IDed a good load. Chap

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

Chap,44grns of5744 is a wonderful 150-175 yard powder with 300 grn bullets.As a side note here,wait times can be very critical.I have seen far more than a .5 inch of difference in groups,like 6-8 inch fliers,due directly to heat build up.If wait times are left unchecked,groups will open way up...

RE: What a difference a grain makes
 

I have two pounds of the 5744, so I intend to shoot that as my powder back east here (Va and NY). Some say it is dirty, but what is dirty in a smokeless? I have not seen the wild flyers, and my groups do open up some as the barrel heats up, howeverbecause I have shot mostlyin the cooler AM from 9am to 11 and only 20 shots ma. Shooting only 20 shots with a good 5 to 10 minture wait between sets of 5 shots gives the barrel time to cool. I have never shot a hot barrel, I have shot a warm barrel and I always check back where the powder is going off not the end of the barrel for this warmness. It usually takes 10 shots before it gets warm.If I was shooting all day with say 50 shots I believe after 10 shots, I would have to wait the 10 to 15 minutes. Like I said above, I am not chasing accuracy as a pure science with the Savage, like some do on Doug's Savage Board. I am chasing excellent hunting accuracy, which to me is 2" at 100 yards. Both bullets, Barnes Origonal and Barnes Flatnose #45843 did that for me with a CR sabot, the Flatnose was shot the first 5 shots and the 66g of 4198 was shot the last 5 shots, and it was a nice group. I am also watching Wilmeyer's experiments of shooting Sabotless in the Savage .50 cal, he is getting some acceptable accuracy with Kurling and a wad under the load. Thanks for your comments.
Chap