Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

I don't own/hunt with a muzzleloader, no experience, jsut what I've read/picked up, wondering why since you just load the barrel with gun powder and a bullet, that setup won't create the velocityes that a bullet will?

Is it because in a sense its a straight walled cartridge? diff powders?

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Smokeless powder is progressive burning, black powder and it's equivalent is not. That means that the longer smokeless burns, the faster it burns. The whole charge will burn up in a short barrel. Black, et.al. burns at a steady rate. A larger powder charge will spew unburned powder out the barrel because it won't all burn in the time it takes to travel the length of the barrel.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Another reason is bigger bullets. As he said above, but also wegenerally shoot bigger bullets. The smallest bullet that I haveused formy blackpowder is 350 grains. The guys who shoot sabots get much better velocity than I do, but they, in general, the bullets are still bigger than all but magnum rifles.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

If you compare a black powder rifle to some of the old 45/70 cartridges (not some of the new ones out there) you can get pretty close to those speeds, and in some cases even better. Those rifles killed thousands of buffalo and other game in our growing country.

We do not shoot a caliber normally smaller then .40 caliber. Most shooters are shooting .44 & .45 caliber projectiles. That is much different then the .30 calibers and smaller. Also as stated, the black powder burns a lot different then modern smokeless powder. It produces a total different barrel pressure burn.

All we can do is understand our differences and adjust our shooting situations to match the bullet we use and our skills. Much like a bow hunter. We normally get one shot. We know what the weapon will do. And we adjust for that kind of a shot.

What I find more remarkable then the fact most muzzleloaders can not match speeds, etc of the bigger modern center fire rifles is, even those that use a roundball, can still be very effective and deadly in their hunting experiences. We go out with (in many cases) limited range abilities, limited knock down abilities, and a one shot deal, yet are able to harvest most anything on the planet.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

I think it also comes down to the fact that real black powder just doesn't have the power that smokeless does, so higher velocities simply can't be reached...

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

High powered rifle s with progressive burning powder develope 55to 60 thousand pounds per square inch black and subs normally top out at 19 to 20 thousand pounds per square inch as BP and subs are cosistant burning thats why loading up with progressive burning powder can blow a muzzleloader up like a hand granade as they are only designed for 20 thousand pounds per square inch. Lee

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

So how come a muzzleloader has to use blackpowder? Why not just use smokeless in a muzzleloader?

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Generally, blackpowder barrels are not built to withstand the breech pressures that come with smokeless powder. They'll blow up in your face!

Savage makes a muzzleloader that can use some type of smokeless, but I'm even less interested in that than I am in in-lines and scopes, so I can't tell you anything about it. I'll let someone else fill you in on that thing.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

am I missing something? aren't in-lines muzzleloaders? Maybe it's me, but similar to my bowhunting experience.....the only real reason I began bowhunting was to hunt the rut....and to hunt more often. I now love bowhunting, but had I been able to shotgun hunt the rut and had a 4 month season would I have taken up bowhunting? Maybe eventually for other states, elk etc.....? Is this kinda the reason most guys take up muzzleloading? different seasons? better draw odds? chances to harvest? Or is it getting back to history....tradition? I'm curious why? Maybe I'll post a couple new muzzleloader questions/forums.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Yes. You are correct. The parallels betweenmodern muzzleloading and bowhunting are strikingly similar.Both sports have been swamped by people who are interested only in extending theirhunting opportunities, use highly developed weapons that technically meet the legalities of the season,and whohave varying degrees of interest - from very much to practically none - in the actual weapons the seasons were originally formed for.

And both sports have their hardcore base of traditionalists who carry on despite the technological advances.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

I started muzzleloading back in the 70s...I do own an inline, but I haven't even loaded it the past 2 seasons...I use my flintlocks...When I started inlines weren't around, they were developed for the guys that didn't want to learn to use a side hammer...

Muzzleloading seasons came about because of the lobbying efforts of the NMLRA, back in the 60s...

I have always loved American History, so I guess that's my reason for sticking with my flintlocks...As most deer in the US are killed within 100 yards, I just don't see any real challenge with my Knight Disc with a 3x9 Leupold scope on it...Not much difference than using my bolt action rifle with a Leupold...

Muzzleloader barrels aren't made to withstand the higher pressures of smokeless powders...I have seen this explained and it had to do with the fact that the cartridge guns have a closed breech with the cartridge case expanding to divert the gasses toward the end of the barrel...With muzzleloaders, the powder is poured directly down the barrel, so the breech sees the same pressure as the back of the projectile...

Another point...When muzzleloaders were introduced tbe barrels were made of iron, not steel, the Bessemer furnace wasn't invented until the mid 1800s...Only then was steel produced in mass quantities...Remember steel is iron that has carbon mixed in, to make it stronger....

So with black powder, the iron barrels were strong enough to contain the pressure of the powder...With steel barrels, better powder was developed and the stronger steel helped contain the higher pressure of smoke less powder...

Make sense???

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

I watched a hunting show a while back, and they said how residents could use high power scopes, yet non-residents had to use either no scope or a 1 power scope, maybe this is there way of saying don't hunt our state!? I say either don't have a non-res season, or level the playing field, I don't like double standards.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Black powder and black powder subs burn quickly and inefficiently. As for muzzleloaders unable to cope with "smokeless" pressure, well, they better be able to. A max charge of triple 7 can hit 30,000 psi +. There are many centerfire and recommended Savage smokeless loads that produce less than that.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

I'm one of those SOB's with a savage inline that shoots smokeless. I cant disagree thats a better rifle for killing deer 300 yds away than a flintlock. The point around here is to kill the deer, and many of them as possible. BP is a very fast burning powder, and pressure can exceed some smokeless loads. Slower powders are a good way to keep pressure low and velocity up, but they are much harder to ignite than bp. Thats where the problems can come in.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Doegirl75,

What happened to your sniper kitty avatar? The new one is cool too but so was the kitty.

Nchawkeye,

Unless I missed something allmost all muzzleloader barrels nowdays are made of some sort of steel, not iron. Even the iron ones could handle charges of over 100 grains according to some accounts, though most of those were only shooting round ball. Also, I don't find my sidelocks any more difficult to shoot than my inlines, flintlocks do add some new elements to the mix though. According to a muzzleloader gunsmith I know the main things that create trouble with a muzzleloader using smokeless powder is the design of the breach plugs and/or the design of the nipple, they are not strong enough to handle the added pressure and can burnout or blow out as a result. The barrels themselves will handle more pressure than the BP and nipples will. Then again, if someone short starts a bullet all bets are off, in that situation any barrel can blow, even with black powder.

This comment does not imply that it is safe to use smokeless and I urge everyone to stay within the recomendations of the manufacturer.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

I wonder how a Savage smokeless muzzleloader would handle an accidental double load?

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

dmurphy...Yes, muzzleloaders made today are made from steel...I was discussing the original muzzleloaders, made 200 years ago...They were made from iron.

Even today, custom barrels are not the same as those made for inlines...

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Well, a double powder charge would probably knock you on your can. Each Savage is proof tested individually to 129,000 psi. If there's a gun to make that kind of mistake with, it's this one.
A double charge involving two bullets? Well, that's an obstruction and all bets are off involving any gun.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

frontier...I think Toby Bridges could answer that!!!:D

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

Safely from the accounts I've seen, though I wouldn't try it. They are proofed to 129,000psi. book loads are around 35,000psi. Double powder and double bullet might result in a bulged barrel, thats why it is critical to use witness marks on the ramrod with ANY muzzle loader.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

I was just curious to if it could handle the mistake. We've all seen people double load thier muzzleloaders and after they picked themselves up off the ground, told us about what happened. Double loaded, 2 powder charges and 2 bullets. Be interesting to see what it would do.

Haha Im sure toby bridges could answer that. But i think he said his was due to poor breech plug design at the time.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

FG,

I'm not sure what would happen if you had a charge then a bullet then a charge then a bullet and shot it but most any muzzleloader should be able to handle one charge and 2 bullets (when properly seated). I know my CVA Bobcat can from proof testing I've done on it. Even the original guns that were proofed typically used twice the powder and twice the projectiles as a proof load.

I've not heard that Savage proofs every gun to 129,000psi and I would be shocked if they did. That pressure is approaching the yield strength of the steel so I'm not sure I would purchase a gun that was subjected to near failure pressures as it may have been compromised in the process.The only test I've heard of that mentions that figure was done on a section of Savagebarrel that was capped at both ends and set off like a pipe bomb. The barrel peice survived and all the pressure was vented through the ignition hole. Definately shows the steel is strong but I still wouldn't buy a gun that was put to that test.

As for the blown Savage, the picture I saw had a place on the inside of the barrel that made me think there was an obstruction at that point. It was near where the barrel appeared to rupture and was not where the bullet should have been but several inches forward of that location. To me it looked like the bullet was short started. Just my opinion but that would explain the results better than a breach plug failure.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

You are correct...Toby claims poor breech plug design.
Savage claims an intentionally rigged double load.

RE: Why blackpowder doesn't shoot as fast as a rifle?
 

ORIGINAL: dmurphy317
You caught my mistake. Yep, Savage does proof test each barrel, but it's not specified how much. They have tested the gun upwards of 129,000 psi, however So not every gun was put through 100k+ of pressure. Sorry, I did say Savage proofs each gun to 129,000 psi, that's not true: [&o] http://www.randywakeman.com/ballltd45.htm