Triumph or Krb7
 

Hi,
Went to Cabelas today to buy a new muzzleloader but couldnt decide which one. They both felt good on the shoulder. Was hoping some input from owners how they like them so far. I want it to shoot strictly sabots. The Krb7 stainless camo is 399.99 and the Triumph is 499.99. They both had things i liked and disliked. I like the idea of the dropout trigger assembly of the Knight, but i thought their ramrod was chinsey, and the support on the barrel for the ramrod was plastic. I dont care for the QLa on the tc. I was concerned about getting the primer in the knight with a scope on.

I would appreciate any input on how its shooting or any problems youve had . Thanks Bob

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I don't know which one you might want, you'd probably be happy with either. I think I'm going with the KRB7 just because I like it. You might look up RR arms online, they have alot better prices than Cabela's plus you don't have to pay tax.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Bob

I have a KRB SS/Black I just posted some things on hereabout the krb read them and if you want more go to
www.modernmuzzleloader.com (lungbuster1)
I have range reports & pic on there. And there are range reports on the TC Triumph also . But I can tell you that I will never own another gun with a QLA or Pass System on it ever again to much troubble.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Triumph!!!!!!!!!
I'd like to hear more reports before I shell out the $$$$ for one. ;):D:D

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I got my black and blue Triumph for 275, I suggest you could shop around a bit. I would not trade my Triumph for two krb7's one of my range frieds has one and we shot and traded and shot just to see how we would like the othe the we each cleand the other gun and he tried to talk me into trading permanantly and he knew bett ahead of time, said he might have to do a bit of trading.
They are nice guns and shoot good, best thing is to shoot both then clean them maybe twice after that you would know. Lee

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Has T/C addressed the inability to load a sabot and bullet combination without a sledge hammer on the Triumph? I finally found a combination that can be driven down the barrel of the Omega and with the exception of Powerbelts most sabot bullet combinations are a no-go. The ones that they sent with the rifle could not be loaded and I stuck one twice about 1/3 of the way down the barrel. My KRB on the other hand loads sabot bullet combinations with ease. Just another thing to consider when looking at T/C rifles as the barrels tend to run very tight some like mine, exceptionally tight.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I was in BassPro in Springfield, MO this evening. They had a blue/black and an SS/black KRB7. The hammer mounted safety device was BROKE on the blued model.It was priced $299. The SS/black was almosthidden behind several other rifles. It was priced at $30X (not sure on the x) but was certainly the better buy. I was amazed at how light both of those rifles felt.

PS: I would go for the SS/Black KRB7 from either NatchezSS or R&R (pricing is almost the same) and replace the included rod with a Super Rod - Hunterfrom http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/cart/asp/item_index.asp 23/64" and lenth to match (might have to round the non-jag end).

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

lemoyne, other than the speed breech on the triumph, why did you think it was so much easier to clean than the krb

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I agree with ML Keith. I have a KRB that I am playing with that belongs to a friend. I have only shot a Triumph 2 times. I prefer the KRB The ease of loading is unbelievable compared to my Omega. I like my Omega because it is a one piece stock and just feels better than the Triumph. The KRB has shown to me that it will group as good as any of the TC's. As a matter of fact I ordered the all camo KRB. That crap of needing a jackhammer to load the TC's is getting old. When I get a load that is easy to load it doesn't load very easy. Thats only my opinion and it doesn't mean much to anybody but me.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

You guys that think the TC's are hard to load... have a beer and relax. Buy some HPH 24's and problem solved. I bought a Knight Disc Elite because it was the best shooting muzzleloader of all time, so I was told. What I found out was that It shot ok but would not even come close to my Omega groups... not to mention the crappy ramrod and all the blowback. I will not shoot another gun with out QLA dang all that short starter suff, I like to just start the bullet with my thumb. IMHO TC just builds a better mouse trap.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

What's the link for RR Arms?

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

MLKeith,There is a standard differance in bore size between the co.'s the knights and the whites have oversize bore and the old original sabots fit right; the TC's have the .498 to .500 bore and the newer sabots like the crush rib [Triumph and the HPH24 [Omega] normally work quite well with them . I dont understand why you have a problem. Lee

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

revpilot, Sorry about not answering sooner I was in the hospital for a week.
The answer about the cleaning is one word, BLOWBACK, My Triumph has NONE so I have to clean only the barrel and breach plug with a squirt and a wipe of oil for the rest of the gun. Lee

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I agree, the MMP HPH24 sabot's work and load very well with the Omega. The standard sabots with T/C Shockwaves and Hornady SST's are much tighter fitting in an Omega.

Tahquamenon

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I think Flinthead has had two many BEERS I have yet to see a TC or any other gunwith a QLA that will out shoot a KNIGHT. ORthat you can load with your thumb unless your loading a bullet without a sabot , I think some one needs a cup of COFFEE.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

It sort of burns me that a company like T/C would build a rifle that wont shoot the bullets and sabots that they send with the rifle. I admit that mine was bought a couple of years ago and the HPH24 sabots were not well known or maybe not even available. And why should we have to buy seperate sabots and throw away the ones that come with the bullets. Makes the shots even more expensive. After giving up on sabots and relying on powerbelts for the Omega I finally fell out of love with it and now concentrate on my Whites and the new KRB7. I paid a lot more for the Omega and expected it to be easier to use but after non-loading sabots and inability to shoot Tripple Seven I fianlly sent it back to the gun safe. I tried everything to make it shoot. Bought all three models of the breechplug made by T/C then gave up on them and bought the .25ACP plug which I admit made the rifle a lot more user friendly. I polished the bore with 200 passes of JB bore paste and it is still difficult to load and will not shoot Tripple Seven without a bad (really bad) crud ring. Some of the Omegas are a lot better than mine from what I read. Otherwise no one would be using them.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

MLKeith, well I guess my approach is different,as well as maybe my luck with individual guns; I aquire the widest range of sabots I can and keep them on hand, before I ever even shoot it the first time I polish the bore to make sure its slick I use jewelers rouge jb boare paste is way to course for what I want if I have to lap a gun that what I use and I pour a lead slug in the barrel or the gun I am going to use it onso it cuts everything including the bottom of the riflings at the same time. After the bore is polished I take a range of bullets and all the sabots and start shoveing them through the barrel with the breach plug out in very little time I know what might work; then I go to the range. I dont even try to shoot something that wont load right cause if it wont load right it wont shoot good.
Indiana SmokePole,you need to open your eyes and look around. I just set my hunting buddy up with a knight Big Horn I found for him just before the season this year,I know what they like and what he could afford and gave him enough to get through this year as soon as we checked out the gun the Knights are good guns he is still using the first load I told him to try the old orginal knight sabot a 249gr XTP and 90 gr of 777 and it will shoot under 2 inches as long as a shooter does. But out shoot my Omega or Triumph Only in your dreams. Each individual gun and its harmonics control that and with all the years and work on gun I have done that has held true.
I personally think that all this blooney about the QLAcame from one bad batch that was off center, mine will shoot as close as 3/4 inch groups when I am up to it and as I like to travel to other states and hunt some times I keep them tuned up for several conicals and I have not had any great problem doing so which makes me wonder just how much some of the people who hollar about what they wont shoot and just how much they know about what they are trying to do. Lee

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

So is 3/4" groups with sabots or conicals?

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I would be happy to send you my Omega to see if you can get it to shoot conicals! I have tried for 4 years with Pryodex, 777, APP, and Black mag from 80 grains to 110 grains. The only conicals that it will shoot decent are powerbelts (4-5" group at 100 yards). Other conicals that it willNOT shoot with these powdersinclude T/C maxiballs, no excuses, buffalo bullets, and great plains bullets. Sent it to T/C and they said it shot ok with 80 grreal black powder and T/C maxiballs.Don't think I shouldpay $500for a gun andONLY be able to get it toshoot conicals with a lower end amount ofreal black powder. I finally went back to hunting with my T/C renegade. Am seriously thinking of getting the KRB and selling my Omega. Want to buy another Omega Lemoyne?

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

i was really hoping the loading problem was not a factor anymore with TC . i had a firehawk, and it was the worst to load, until i found powerbelts. Sounds like maybe its still the same with TC, i wish guns shops were like shoe stores, you could try them out........first

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Indiana SmokePole

Think you might be over-stretching ita bit there.. when you compare the Knight and TC... most really good shoting guns have more to do with the shooter than the gun. I would agree that that some Knights are excellent shooters but I would also say that there a lot of goodTC shooters also... in fact the best shooters I have are a couple of old Rem 700's and a White, but the neither Omega is a slouch either. Nothing wrong with being proud of a brand or declaring it the best in the world - but that is your world... Remember there was a string of Nights that were not worth a darn after Tony sold out.

I am not sure what you are getting at here...

I do load my Omega's, my Remingtons, my A&H's, and the White (not counting the sidelocks here) witha sabot/bullet combination with thumb pressure and to add to that that I load .503Bullshops in the first three and .5045's in the White with thumb pressure. Do not even go to accuracy because they are and in the hands of a better shooter than I they would even be better.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

MLKeith

Just some information for you... Orignally TC had contracted Harvester to produce sabots for them and they wroked very well in the TC barrels.(Plus another change occured for TC - they started making theirown barrels which caused a compoundedproblem...)Then they alsoswitched sabot vendors to MMP and there was a big batch of TC sabot/bullet combinations that were put out to the public that came with the HPH-12 (MMP's standard sabot) but it was soon discovred that those sabots will not fit a TC and TC revised the contract to be supplied with the HPH-24 which is comparable to a regular Harvester. Even those proved to be to tight for many of the new production TC barrels so again another contract with MMP produced the yellow "super glide" for TC these sabots can not be sold to the public by anyone other than TC, but MMP recognized the need of the thinner sabot so they then produced the MMP-3p-EZ load, Harvester folled with the "crush rib" and as you might be aware Hornady now has a contract with MMP to produce the red "low drag" sabot for them.. another 3p. Also when TC learned of the HPH-12 error, they offered a program to re-supply (replace) the incorrect sabots. Think you still might even be able to do that...

I have two Omega's and have abosolutely no problem loading them - including loading a .458 in an Orange MMP sabot.

There is one other problem that I am aware of... the older Omega/Encore barrels were bored .501/.502 while a large bunch of the newer ones are bored .49/.500 as Lemoyne has suggested. And unfortunately as you already know there is no standard bore in an ML that must e met by manufactures....

The biggest problem I had with my Omega's is soot and blowback but after taking your advicxe I did install a 25 ACP and problem solved... I can not tell you why I do not get the "crud ring as you describe in any of my guns...

revpilot

I really believe that you can load a TC if you find the correct sabot for the bore you have, actually that goes for any gun - it is a motter of finding a proper fitting sabot and there are a lot to choose from these days...

To show you what I mean here is a picture of some of the sabots I have, and these are the older one... there better ones available today...

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Lemoyne

But you have to shoot farther than 25 or 30 yds .
I have 3 guns with the QLA system and they are or I thoght they was Good shooters until I bought A Knight Disc Extreme XT . And this gun shoots not only saboted bullets great @ 100 yds it will also shoot Conicals great also That is why I now have 5 no 6 KNIGHTS now and gave my TC Omaga to my son to tryand get to shoot good .
If you look through the threds what is the major complaint TC stocks cracken, can't get good groups no matter what they shoot , QLA not lined up correctly. And I really don't remember ever seeing were a Knight stock has busted or that anyone can't find a good load for any of them AND I don't see any complaints on the QLA not beeing right O O O thats right they don't have one because they know that the QLA is crap and they don't want to get a bad rep. And TC has had so many complaints about their stocks and the QLA LOOKS like they would fix it but they won't WHY . I have a TC renagade that I wouldn't take any thing for Why because it is a great shooter thats when TC made great guns WHITH OUT THE QLA SYSTEM.
Knight rifle are heavyer WHY because they have a good barrle on them by GMB , A good steel barrle is going to weigh more than a cheeper steel barrle, and look at alot of the sidelock shooters they are replacing there barrles with the GMB WHY because they are a good barrle and they shoot great also.
SO if any one needs to open there EYES it may be you.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I hate to jump in and ask a question but what is the QLA. I am new and have a few posts and lot of reading and had decided on a TC Triumph for my first gun but I am a little lost now after reading this post.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I too believe the QLA problem is very real and not just a single-batch problem. But I also think both Knight and TC are capable of (and often do) building the best mass production muzzleloaders available today. Knight (Green Mountain) has a better handle on barrel consistency based upon my ownership of several of each, past and present.

And I really don't see why this discussion should be confrontational in the least. If we all liked the exact same thing - it would be a boring world. :D

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Sabotloader I will agree that a conical can be loaded by thumb presure I shoot a NEX460 out of my KRB also a UC Short 443 by Bull shop. but if I can load a sabot with just fingrs then it is to small and Most likely not going to shoot at its max Poten.
This has been a proven fact by to many shooters including myself on the sabots not conicals the conicals when in a good barrle will useually shoot good but my point is that the QLA system is not a good thing.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Phathead

THE QLA stands for Quick load Accurizer .

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Why doesnt TC fix known problems with their rifles?

Because its easier and cheaper to send new parts out rather than get new tooling equipment to improve the issues.

Its cheaper to rebuild an alternator for a car, but we all know its a lot easier to just go get a new one.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

UC
You are 100% correct if I have offended any one than I ame Sorry , I was just Giveing MO.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Phathead

The QLA is on the muzzle end of the barrel - it is a section of the barrel that has been bored larger than the bore itself so that you can drop you sabot/bullet combination into the barrel for easier loading. Anotheravantage (suppose to be) is there is now crown on the end of the barrel. Most crownson ML's are subject to damage by the ram rod rubbing them as you load or patch a barrel. Wearing the crown un-equally will cause loss of accuracy.

The QLA was actually thought of a long time ago by old time rifle builders and when it is installed correctly it is not normally a problem. My hunting partner has a TC Hawken with a QLA on itand shoots Bull Shop conicals very well - but the guy is also an excellent shot - he pops the headsof grouse with it all the time- 10/15 yards - not much of shot but for a open site ML he impresses me. He can shoot clay pigeon targets at a 100 yards with a 460 BullShop with out any problems (from a bnech and rest).

If you plan on shooting conicals then I would be some what leary of the QLA but there are TC's out there that shoot them just fine and visa-versa...

I have two Omega's but I have never shoot a conical from them so I can not tell you about mine, but then again I have no interest in shooting conicals from them.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Indiana SmokePole

Again not totally true... the ML's I shoot do not require such tight pressure that you can not start them with thumb pressure... If you get correct tightness you can shoot them accurately you do not have to pound or stand on the ram rod to get them down. You can check this over on Modern ML by sending a PM to Del Ramsey (Razorback) he is the owner of MMP and he can assure you of these facts. The new polymere sabots make the old plastic sabots obsolete, they are designed to expand and fit to the riflings + plus retain pressure without leaking. Look at the bottom of a MMP sabot and you will see how Del redesigned them to be stonger with the stair step yet still able to obterate to the barrel.

I am certainly not the best shooter in the world but with these "thumb pressure sabots" 1 1/2 groups at a 100 are the norm for me with the shooting equipment I have. Someone like Lemoyne that is competive bench shooter would easilytighten that up.

The only place you need really tight fitting sabots is when shooting "smokeless" because of the progessive burning powders invloved...

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

i love my long range hunter. not sure about the krb7. i'm sure it is great. I just bought my knight a few months ago. I couldn't find any knight dealers here where i live. Well none that carried anything knight other than accessoris, because everyone shoots thompson centers' around here. So i called knight to order one thru them and they gave me the phone number to an ace hardware in wisconsin that is the largest knight dealer in the united states. They by had the best prices on all there knight guns that i could find anywhere. the guy was nice to deal with, it took about 5 min. on the phone and my gun was shipped to me in 3 days. the stock had a blemish in it, so i called knight and they shipped me a new lam. thumbhole stockthat same day. if you end up getting the knight i can give you the number of the hardware or you can just call knight and i'm sure they will tell you the same as the did me. good luck on the decision.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

For what it's worth, I love my Omega.
It's a tack driver with MMP 3 petal ez sabots and Hornady 300gr .452 xtp's.
90gr t7
Also green crush rib sabot, .430 240gr xtp over same powder charge.
Couldn't ask for a more accurate firearm.
I tolerate the crud ring

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

i think people not liking theQLA is crazy. i really can't see where having QLA or not having it can change the way i load my triumph at all. the bullet is going down the barrel the same know matter what. i cant figure out how to miss aline a bullet in any ML. WITH OR WITHOUT i just don't see any differents.i DO think TC needs to make all there barrels to the same size,there are some way tighter then others. i also thik most of the crud ring problems with TC guns is due to there disign ,because my triumph gets some crud ring with any thing i shoot in it .

i do know this i have yet to see a KNIGHT that will shoot as good as my triumph or my old cva hunterbolt and i have a good friend that is sponcored by knight and he can't out shoot either on the bench. he has knight ML'S that haven't even seen the market yet.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

The 200SW loads fine in both of mine, the 250SW does not and is as you described. ALL Precision Rifle bullets load easily. How many have you tried?

You can always get smaller sabots from MMP.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I am wondering just what your problem is, are you a teen ager?
My range has no 25yd set up it starts at 50 yds and I only use that for sighting in. I do not feel this kind of comment is appropriate here.
Most of the people here do not knock brand names or the other people here. Lee

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

MLKeith

From my point of view - I really do not care which rifle or manufacturer it is - your point is the number one point for you as it is or should be with each of us. This drives Undeclocked nuts - butI still think my Remingtons are the best gun I own including the White...

Sidenote... did you see my post on that elk I shot this year. This is the second elk with a ML for me (I have shot plenty prior but with a 300 Win Mag and a Nosler 200 grain Partition) and both of these ML elkwere good clean harvests. Since I have read several of your posts I have been worried that maybe I should also be shooting big conicals at elk, I like you hunt by myseld most often and at my age I have no wish to track for any distance at all. but so far the .458's are working.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

I was worried when i asked this question it would turn into a knight vs TC. I know both guns are good guns. I just want some feedback on both. I know each is gonna have it drawbacks, but i wanted to hear first hand from owners. It would be nice if the guns shops were like shoe stores and go in and say let me try that one, and take it out back and shoot it a few times, and clean it and see what its all about.

RE: Triumph or Krb7
 

Nothing drives me nuts, that trip was completed long ago. :D