Spanish vs American
 

Ifound a website with articles about the Spanish barrels on CVA, Winchester, Traditions, and their inferior quality.I took note of the articles dates 02-04 and such. More research brought me here and found a few threads about the site and topic and still confused.

Background: 38 and picked back up deer hunting 3 yrs ago. Very anal about spending money on gear. Bow took 2 months to buy and set up through research.

I received almost $400 in gift cards to BassPro by request for Christmas for the sole purpose of a ML. I want to spend it wisely and extend my hunting season. I want Quality- accuracy, ease of use, cleaning, etc. I don't want to waste money on a name that isn't better or save money and have an inferior or dangerous gun.

Thompson Triumph with a little extra and save for scope.
CVA and get complete set up.
Knight rolling block same as Thompson.
open to others.

Any help would be great! Site seems to be great, even arguments are civil which is unusual when opinions are involved.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I would go with either the T/C or Knight out of those options and Iwould be happy with either one. go handle them and see which one feels the best to you.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

The Knight Rolling Block has got some excellent reviews. Also its hard to beat an Omega. The Triumph has also been getting some real good range reports. If you want to invest in a high quality rifle, then I too would suggest the Knight or Thompson Center lines.

Although there are a lot of Optima, Kodiak, Winchester, Wolf, and Pursuit Pro shooters that swear by their rifles and the quality of them. But you are back to the Spanish barrels that you are not comfortable with. I can understand your position, although like I said.. there are a lot of satisfied BPI/CVA owners out there.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

If you are going to make statements based on some article you read at least post the link to the article otherwise it is just your opinion. There is an article on Chuck Hawks site but it does not come right out and say the barrels are inferior. It just states there has not been any testing done by american companies.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

To be honest I have always been partial to T/C, but my views are changing. No doubt Knight is a good brand, but CVA seems to be a very good shooter in most cases and a lot less expensive.
If I were going to buy a new muzzleloader today I'd be very tempted to get a CVA Wolf! From what I've seen & heard they are great performers at an unbelievable low price! Handled one when they first hit the market and wasn't impressed with fit & finish, but I handled one last week and WAS impressed! Very good fit (tight lockup with no play between the barrel & receiver) and a great trigger pull. I wouldn't be planning on shooting 150gr charges anyway, and with 100gr charges I wouldn't have any fears of the barrel not being strong enough to stand it.
I think a lot of the negative comments come from people who are simply of the mind frame "if it's not made in the USA, it's inferior". I like to buy products made here at home, but some imports are just as good and a lot cheaper because of labor costs.
BTW - Just bought a new Buck knife last week (online purchase)and when I got it I checked it out thoroughly. Very well made - good fit - smooth operation (folding blades) with no slop or looseness - shaving sharp right out of the box -and stamped CHINA on the back ofmain blade! :eek:

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I chose a CVA Optima for my first ML and have been very inpressed. It has a made in spain barrel, and it gives me under and inch group at 100 yards. I even put a hole in a hole. My Dad has an Optima and a Wolf and both of those are tack drivers aswell. Really accurate guns, they shoot as good if not better than our regular rifles...

RE: Spanish vs American
 

All of the muzzleloaders i own are spanish made. I also have one Whop made rifle that seems to be a great shooter.

Spanish made barrels got a bad name during 1995-1996 when the original company, cva had poor inspection service and let a shipment of unsafe inlines in to the US which had a bad breech plug design. These are the ONLY years to have a recall or known problems.

if you're reading Randy Wakeman's artiles, ask him about the Savage muzzleloader that blew up.

Come to think of it, the last time i emailed him for info on any NEW spanish made muzzleloaders having problems with blowing up, He would not answer me and would just threaten to sue me if i continued to email him :D:D
Hes a real piece of work that guy is.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Take it easy on the new person. He's only looking for information on what to purchase. It is apparent he has tried to do some research about muzzleloaders and must have found the Wakeman articles. I can not blame him for being a little cautious after reading them. And I see no reason to start the Spanish proof testing argument all over again. We've rehashed that too often as far as I am concerned.

I have to admit, after I first read Randy Wakeman's articals, I was a little concerned owning as many of the Spanish guns, as I do. But my take on it, I use them with common sense, according to manufacturer's recommendations, and so far my rifle have been safe to shoot and like others state.. very accurate. Give Phathead credit also, that he did not run out and purchase a rifle and then ask if it is any good... like some people people have done. Still given the choice, I'd take a Thompson Center, Knight or White over any of the other brands of rifles out there.. talking inlines. And this is personal preference. My CVA Staghorn Magnum is a great shooter. Not real pretty when you talk barrel to stock fit, but it lays them down range with the best of them.

As you can see by the considered choices he has a CVA listed. An Optima, Wolf, Kodiak, are all good guns. There are some good deals on them as well at some sites. Before I would purchase any of the rifles suggested by the forum members, try to get out there and handle one. Look at how the barrel fits to the stock, no matter what brand. This might save you a bed job later down the road. Also search old posts about any brand of rifle that has your interest, and what others have found good and bad. Some of them had stock issues did they not?

I do not see an Omega listed in your choices I am guessing because of the Triumph. Right now there are some sweet deals showing up on them. My only opinion (and that is all it is) would be buy the better Omega and not the Z5. Their stock worries me. Although some of you have found ways around that. Being the clever little people you are.

So I try to anser your question this way... If I had $400.00 I would look at a Knight Rolling Block in .50 caliber, with bases, warne QD rings, and a good scope. If I had to save a little more, then get the rifle and the other stuff later. I think that would be all the rifle a person would ever really need considering the reports coming in from KRB7 owners. Again, just my opinion. If you like a different brand, then perhaps explain what appeals to you about about it and why you think it would be a good purchase for him.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I would get an Omega. I know that's not in your list, but it's basically the triumph in plain clothes. That said, the Knight would be a quality rifleas well, and I don't have a problem with my CVA Kodiak, although I like my Omega better.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Knight Rolling Block I bought one about 11/2 months ago
and I have to say It is with out a dought the most easyest ML that I have or have had in the past to clean and it will shoot anything with good ACCUR.
I bought mine to shoot Conicals out of and all I can say is WOW AWSOME I shoot 85gr 2fg loose 777 with a bullshop 460gr NEX also a 445gr U C short from BS.
I also shot some Saboted loads out of it with same Results WoW.
But I have some awsome shooting sabot guns in my 2 Knight Disc Extreme XT.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Hey UC, you see that? I hope yer gettin yer check from Dan. :D

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I have had most of them and the only one I have shoot much since I got it is the Triumph, people that just look at them dont have any idea how much better they are, my second choice is the Omega the Omega shoots as good as the Triumph but lacks several things like the complete control of blowback and the easy cleaning [even so its better for cleaning than most, third choice would be the Knight rolling block. Lee

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Everyone here has their own "special gun" that we would recommend to everyone. The best thing that you can do is get with some friends and shoot theirs if you can and get a feel for what fits for your shooting style. All my deer guns are Traditions and their service is excellent. CVA now has Bergara barrels on their MLs which are also being made on centerfire barrels for the TC models that change out. I think the top Spanish makers, CVA, Traditions, etc are making advances in barrels and I would trust any of them. Bottom line is reading the manual over and over and understanding what charges and loads are acceptable for that gun. Next I would shoot at the range with small loads and work up from that to a point that you get accurate shot placement at the range you expect to shoot at. I'll bet you anything that you'll be in the neighborhood of 100 grains with a 250 grain bullet at 100 yards. Most manuals say that you can shoot 150 grains but why? If your barrel is 6 foot long that would be the only way you would burn up allthe powder so why waste it, powder is so expensive now anyway. I too got a wealth of gift cards and I'm waiting until after all the deer hunting seasons are over as I usually see some deals. I'm curently eyeing up the new Lyman and Traditions XLT in camo barrel and stock or I might buy another Knight TK 2000 with thumbhole stock for Turkey season. There is an overwhelming amount of guns out there. Handle as many as you can stand and buy the one that fits you. One that I can recommend may fit me but not you. With this site you should be able to hear the positive and negatives about any brand. Don't forget that there is no such thing as a dumb question here, we have all been there. Good luck in your choice and welcome.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I can only speak from personal experience, but the green mountain barrel on my knight is tack driver accurate. I've only tried about 3 loads out of it, but at 50 yards (my normal hunting distance) it is a freakin tack driver. I would expect the same performance from any of the green mountain barrels. If you can get the same performance from a spanish barrel for less money, go for it. Good luck, Greg

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Gentlemen, thanks for the input.

First off Timber Creek, I did not want to start anything on a certain author because it would bring in the pros and cons of him and I really wanted to find out about the ML's.I apologize to you for not mentioning names and you are correct, it isopinion both his and mine. How he formed his is his business, mine is just from starting my research and that being the first thing I come to.Frankly his article scared me and as I mentioned the article is dated. I just wanted to find out as much as I could from experienced shooters such as you and everyone else on here. I respect all of the info and opinions that were posted.

I just simply want to make an informed purchase. My first visit to Bass Pro wasn't so great. The clerk just seemed to have "they are all great which one are you buying tonight" attitude. This just didn't sit well with me so I left thinking I will do some homework and buy it off the web or in the store without their help.

Cayugad, I will go handle some of the guns, looking at the points you mentioned.

For the record I certainly don’t want to restart the barrel test argument again, I could tell from some of the other threads that it definitely is a touchy subject. I guess I picked the wrong title for the thread. I guess it was because the thought of any gun blowing up scares me like the thought of shooting a 20 inch arrow out of a 28 inch draw bow at 65lb draw. Both require a trip to the doctor with some explaining.

Thanks again

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Phathead - I hate clerks like that. I never could understand why a Sporting Goods store would have someone like that behind the counter. I see that in Wal Marts and other stores as well. All most like they are doing you a favor by waiting on you. When I go to look at guns, I want to LOOK at them. I want to know all about them. Some of the clerks wouldnot even know how to load one, or what the rifle might shoot well. I do not blame you in your search for the right rifle. Many people just buy one rifle. Unlike some of us around here (me included).

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I agree about the clerks your talking about. I think some of that comes from bean counters making the management decisions, most of those clerks don't get any kind of commission...but that is whole nuther can of worms. I think me and cayugad were getting at the same thing. I think it will really come down to making some close personal inspections of some of the different models your interested in and going with the one that your happy with both with fit and finish of the gun and how it fits you and feels in your hands. I don't have much experience with the CVA,Traditions, etc. other than handling them in the store and one Traditions of a friend I shot a few times. I don't think you could go wrong with a Triumph, Omega or KRB.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

One of my first mz's was a cva optima. It was a good, servicable rifle. I took several different animals with it before selling it last Spring. I currently shoot a Knight KRB and love it. Though the CVA is a good rifle,I believe the overall quality is better with companies such as Knight and T/C.

The best prices I've seen, so far, on the KRB have been at natchez shooters supply:

http://natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=KGK RB607C

http://natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=KGK RB707C

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Whatever happened to Wakeman? I used to get a kick out of reading some of his rants and enjoyed his self proclaimed expert opinions.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

You just had to post that link and brag on your rifle.. didn't ya Chris. [:o] That stainless steel model is just what my rifle wall is crying for. I'm just glad there was no picture of it.. I like Natchez as a store to do business with. Real friendly and helpful people on the telephone, and more then willing to go the extra mile to make your purchase a good one.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

YepDave, you need another rifle :D. If you ever see one in person, it'll probably go home with you. I like my blue/black version but, I'll admit, the stainlessis anice looking rifle.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Thanks Underclocked.. maybe I should just order one and get it all over with..

RE: Spanish vs American
 

DANG! I looked...

RE: Spanish vs American
 

:D:D

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Also getting tired of the over hashed Spanish barrel topic. Which I believe had some very good and valid reasons for starting in the first place. I also think (don't know for sure) that part of the issues were with the earlier Spain imports is that they would not hold up well when improperly loaded.

However, it's wise for anyone to ask as many questions as possible. And as for CVA, yes they had a window where they were shipping some really cheap and questionable inline ML's (Crap would be too nice a word). CVA (or any other company that has had a serious safety/quality issue)will and likely shouldendure some additional scrutiny on their current product offerings. It's up to CVA and others than importto demand a higher quality from their importers and demonstrate that their quality has improved. Which I think CVA, Traditions etc. have improved their quality.

Base on your questions I would stick with a T/C Triumph ora Knight KRB. I would rather have either of those and hunt open sights until I could afford the best optics Icould,versus a CVA/Traditions with a scope of some sorts.

My reason: I believe that the overall quality, fitment, finish, hardware and supportwith T/C and Knight is better than any other production ML.

M2C,

Tahquamenon

RE: Spanish vs American
 

i bought a Traditions Pursuit Pro last year and had the oppertunity to harvest 2 bucks with it. i love it! i even used it during the general gun/centerfire rifle season just because of it's accuracy and devastation.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I have a digital tension gauge to measure trigger pull.

If I could find (and I have looked at dozens at different stores)a Pursuit Pro XLT off the rack with a 3-4 pound trigger, I would buy it on the spot as the heavy trigger has been the only thing keeping me from buying one.

I think they are a really nice ML and aside from the heavy trigger have gotten some really good feedback. Not shot one, but they really handle and feel well. Just wish the trigger was better out of the box.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I stick with T/C, though I would be open to a Knight in the future. IMHO other in-business manufacturers are inferior in overall quality and design. Not to say anyone is a sucker for using one and they shouldn't love it, this is a personal choice.

My first two MLs were Traditions. I was never concerned with the barrels and am still not despite what someone on whom I will keep my opinion to myself to be ice used to stammer on about with no proof. In fact I did some experiments with one of those guns that would have blown any moderately weak barrel and it's still killing deer today.

My problem with them was overall quality. Both needed trigger jobs, and the second was a dangerous gun if you tried to adjust it under 8 lbs pull (ie, if you close the bolt w/o putting the safety on it fired! At 8 lbs!).

RE: Spanish vs American
 

To think that TC doesn't make some lemons is like living in a fairy tale. There was a thread on another site complete with pictures of the muzzle and bore of a TC Pro Hunter .50 X 209 that cost aguy $999 that looked terribly rough. He sent it back to TC and he still wasn't satisfied with the way that it lookedafter it came back, and he said that he would notbe buyingTC products again anytime soon.
The pictures on the thread are down now, but for those who areinterested in reading abouthis horror storyanyway, here it is:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=280251&highlight=omega

His final words:

"Re: the 50X209 barrel, the rifling is course for the final about 2", and it looks deformed by something. So, in terms of the barrel, appearances aside, I will wait to see how performance goes. When I pay $999.00 for a rifle, I expect a smooth barrel...especially from TC Arms. Their barrels were always like glass.

So, in sum, no, the replacement parts are not "quality". In fact, they are disappointing, and as I said, for that reason, I will not be buying any more TC Arms' products any time soon."

I've always liked and toutedTC's reputation, but after seeing those pictures and him still not being satisfied withit's replacement,it leadsa person to at least question some ofTC's quality. Maybe cheaper is sometimesbetter, and a good Spanish madegun is better than an American madelemon.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I can not speak to the Spanish barrels, I have no experience with them, and I rarely believe much of what I read on the net, unless I have a history with the poster's. there are some good guy's here on this MZ site, and I think you can trust what they say.

I have owned or shot alot of MZ's. I always keep coming back to the Knight. Trigger's are one reason. Knight has the best trigger. I also like their barrels and the way they shoot. All the Knight's I have shot have been good shooter's. I have owned a few of the TC's that I just could not get to shoot, and my friend's have had some of the same problem's. And I also have a real problem with the TC's costing what they do, and having the terrible trigger's they have.

IMO if you go with a Knight and take the time to work a load up right, then I think that is your best route to go. And as stated earlier, if you do not have enough cash to get the scope now, then by all means shoot it open sighted.

I know alot of guy's have good luck with the less expensive MZ's. And I am happy for them. I was just never satisfied with the stocks, trigger guards, ramrod's and other features of the less expensive models. And especially those cheesy trigger's.

I have dropped my MZ battery down to 3 rifles. A knight LRH with a scope, My old stand by MK85 with open sights, and a Lyman LH flinter. Oh ya I forgot about the TC Hawken I have in the safe. Go with quality and you should have it forever. Tom.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Both of my Omegas have very nice triggers. My buddy's Encore has one of the best factory trigger pulls I've ever seen. I wouldn't say T/C is KNOWN for bad triggers, though there may be a few out there.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

Ive shot both knights and CVAs for the past 10 years.The newer CVAs are pretty good guns but require a lot more maintainence it seems like to keep them in good shape.The knight I just gave my kid I hunted with for about 5 years in all sorts of brutal weather, rain, ice, snow, sleet, etc...Never had a misfire, the metal parts are all still in pretty good shape with a little light rusting appearing here and there and one small spot in the barrel that for some reason refuses to come clean no matter how much I scrub it.

My latest CVA by comparison is only 2 years old, has been used in fairly mild conditions by comparison, and has recieved much better care than my older Knight.Its already showing signs of rust and theres a big bare patch on the barrel where the bluings dissapeared, not from misuse, just dissapeared.The factory ramrod that came with my CVA snapped in half the 6th time I used it.These were both similiarly priced guns.

That being said my CVA I honestly believe will outshoot my knight in terms of accuracy, not by much but it does seem a little more accurate out past 100 yards than my Knight did.This ay not be typical for all guns by these companies.

I tried getting an older CVA sidelock fixed from the company a few years back, it had a problem with the hammer being offset from the nipple and the gun not going off as a result.CVA customer service gave me a run around for a couple months and never did fix the gun, its sitting in the closet someplace.

Knight on the other hand fixed one of my buddies barrels when he forgot to grease the breachplug and it became siezed in the barrel free of charge.They also offered to replace the stock on my dads gun, one of the first LK 93s on the market for cost when it broke a couple weeks ago.

Im my opinion with CVA youll get a decent shooting little gun thats slightly higher maintainence and cosmetically not as good but youll save anywhere from alittle to a considerable bit of money{depending on model}in the process.I havent dealt with thier customer service recently but hear its somewhat better.Knight youll get a decent shooting, hassle free gun that should last for years but youll spend more on it, youll know they stand behind thier guns though.

RE: Spanish vs American
 

I don't know of any ML maker that has not shipped a dud now and then.

I've gotten some lame ducks from T/C, Knight, Remington (my first Rem700ML had a bolt that was better for hammering nails that for igniting percussion caps), CVA and Traditions.

Overall though I thinkIhave had the best support from T/C and Knight if I have run into an issue. But it appears that CVA and Traditions have stepped up on service from reports here on the forum, but I don't know for sure as I just have old sidelocks nothing new from either company.

Tahquamenon