209 question
 

I read recently that regular 209 shotgun primers aren't as accurate as muzzleloader specific 209s. Is there any true to that or is it a marketing scheme?

-E-

RE: 209 question
 

All I ever used when I had an in-line was regular Win 209 primers simply because I had a bunch on had for shotshell loading. I never had a misfire or hang fire. I don't use an in-line any more but I believe I read that the ML 209 primers burn a bit hotter. Could very well be a marketing gimmick but wouldn't swear to it.

RE: 209 question
 

I would saypart science and partmarketing fluff. I have always been able to achieve a load/accuracy with any 209 primer.

The for "ML" 209's are cleaner shooting in my experience, but for the money (like $6-8 a pack retail) I would stay with a Win 209 shotgun primer for half the cost.

I did buy a boatload of the Rem Kleenbores mostly because they were mis-priced. They do shoot very well.

Tahquamenon

RE: 209 question
 

I guess I should expand on what I read a little...The article said that regular shotshell 209's are too hot and actually dispell the charge slightly in the barrel before the blackpowder chargefires. It went on to say that accuracy was lost due to the powder and bullet no longer being seated firmly at the bottom of the barrel. They explained that muzzleloading specific 209'sare not as explosive and won't dispell the black powder charge.

It all sounds good on paper, but I know all too well you can't believe all you read.Therefore, has anyone out there compared side by side shotshell 209's to ML 209's?

RE: 209 question
 

edelsite

the issue is that 209's come with differnt powers... some 209's could actually puch the bullet off the powder before the powder ignites... That is the issue and it is possible.... I does not happen to me and has not especially if you take care of your powder and the load in your gun..

I would suggest that you do not get primers that are on the very hot side... I use an old primer that is no longer available a Remington 209-4 especially developed for a 410 shotgun. Then the regular Winchester might be the next best choice...

Just my 2 cents...

RE: 209 question
 

I've heard that but honestly have not been able to prove that shotshell 209's are too hot and cause the projectile to lift off of thecharge.

I would say that it's plausible that there is perhaps an optimized ignition primer, but as to just how much value that adds I have no idea.

I have always been able to get Win 209's to print exceptionally well.

RE: 209 question
 

Shotgun 209 primers tend to be less accurate and more mess (diffently more dirty powder residue)than use of ML 209. Quote"The shotgun primers are the hot ones andclaims topush the charge out of the barrel faster than it can burn all the powder charge up" There maybe some sort of truth to this in that the ML primers do seem to be more consistant in the accuracy catagory where the shogun primers seem to be a larger groups, with fliers. This pretty much holds true on all muzzleloaders we have shot in my area. Of course there are always exceptions to every rule and situation. And powder kind (loose or pellets) can make a huge difference as well. I personally think it has a lot to do with how tight the projectile is in the barrel as well. Some of these ML go from (the bullet/sabot almost falling into the barrel, to others you have to stand on the ram rod to get it down the barrel. My advice is experiment and use what works best for you. I've seen suppose to be the same gun shoot totally different than one just like it? Shoot, shoot, then shoot some more to be sure, what your "sweet spot" load is?

RE: 209 question
 

You guys are awesome! Thanks for all the good advice. I think I'll experiment with both and I'll post if there are any real advantages either way. It's nice to have a good experience base (like this forum) to help clear up fact from marketing fluff.

-E-

RE: 209 question
 

"Then the regular Winchester might be the next best choice..."

i now use the Winchester standard 209 primers exclusively.

So called "muzzleloader" primers are not for me. Been there done that.Tried both the Remington and Winchester "muzzleloader" primers. First of all the so called "muzzleloader" primers cost overthree times as much as shotgun primers. In my guns all they didwas to amplify the crud ring problem when using 777. Contrary to the marketing hype, they were not as accurate in my guns as 209 shotgun primers.

RE: 209 question
 

Winchester W209 for the pellets and I use Remington Kleenbore for loose powder. I seem to get the best crud control with this arrangement. Although if you are a shotgun reloader, I am sure the primers would work just fine.

RE: 209 question
 

From my Encore, I shoot PB 240 gr .40 cal over 120 grains of loose Pyrodex, ignited using the Variflame system also. I can consistantly shoot 1" five shot groups at 100 yards off the bench from a fouled bore. I have proven this system to several guys at the range over the (209 primer/pellet) combination. Once guys see for themselves how consistantly this combination shoots, they can't believe it.

This is an excerpt from a post I made in another thread. I certainly applies here too.

RE: 209 question
 

I think its BS I get the same accuracy with all 209 primers the special muzzleloader ones are so dirty in the Triumph as to necessitate cleaning the breach plug every 10 shots but the regular win 209 for reloading shot shells work just fine.
If you have a sabot thats tight enough for fine accuracy I dont think that the 209 could be moveing it off the powder, I just dont believe you could possably get minute of angle or anywhere near it if that was happening.
Of course that may be one of the reasons a really tight combination is needed for good accuracy.
Maybe Sabotloader will tell us if he get good accuracy with a little better fitting combo with the 25apc conversion? Lee

RE: 209 question
 

what is the veriflame system you're talking about? I'm new to muzzleloading so I haven't heard of a lot of this stuff.

-E-

RE: 209 question
 

LEE

I have the 25ACP conversion installed in both of my Omega and a 32 H&R Mag conversion installed in my A&H. I see absolutely know difference in accuracy between these conversions and a regular 209... The only reason I use the conversions... they are cleaner in the breech area...

I will even climb out on the limb a little further... from Remington's I have shot:

Cheddite 209 primers
Remington 209-4 primers
Remington 209 Premieres
Federal 209
Winchester 209
Winchester Triple Seven 209 primers

I can not tell you I have seen a difference in accuracy with any of this either but some a definitely cleaner than others....

Variflame - is a battery cup like a 209 primer with the ability to install a small pistol primer - Distributed by Precision Rifle... I have one of these also that I want try in the White, not because of accuracy but maybe a little less mess in the breech - Have not had a chance to try them yet...

RE: 209 question
 

For smokeless MLer, that is true. I had a misfire this year that blew the bullet, sabot and powder out of the barrel. I was dangerious, since I didn't know how much unburned powder was in the barrell. For smokeless, unlike regular MLer, you need the hottest 209 you can get. Therefore Federal 209, Winchester or CCI Mags. No Kleenbore or 777 primers they are NOT hot enough. There was a post over on the Savage Forum on shooting a sabot from a rifle with different primers and measuring the speed of the sabot as a surrogate for "hotness/power" of the primer. I kept the post and will email it to you if you want to see it. PM me with your email address. Chap Gleason

RE: 209 question
 

The Variflame primer system is one method of using a small rifle primer to ignite the powder charge. I believe all of the small rifle primer systems mentioned in this thread (Variflame, 25acp, 32 H&R) were all developed by PR Bullets. The biggest difference with the Variflame is that no breech plug modification is necessary, because the dimensions of the brass cup that hold the small rifle primer are about the same as a 209 primer. So, the Variflame cup seats in an existing 209 primer breech.

One advantage to using these small rifle primer systems; is that they are cleaner. The 25acp and 32H&R and the cleanest because the shell casing is inserted into the modified breech plug and any blowback following ignition is captured very effectively.

However, the reason these system were developed by PR Bullets WAS NOT to be cleaner. That is merely an added bonus. The reason they were developed was to use an ignition source that was hot, but much less powerful than the over powered 209 primer. That is the God's honest truth. Read the development yourself at prbullet.com