Your thoughts on energy and range...
12-18-2007, 04:19 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
I do not put alot of credibility on "kinetic energy's"---"killing ability". A 22-250 at 4,000 fps has more KE than a 45-70 at 1200 fps, but I sure know which one does a better job of putting game down. There are so many variables involved that it can get very confusing. If you step up to a 165 grain 30 caliber bullet at 3200 fps-then all of a sudden the KE becomes a factor again.
MZ's have the distinct advantage of making a big, clean hole. I think the wound channel of just the bullet is all that is necessary. That is why some hunter's use a 45-70 at 1200 fps. They say they can eat right upto the hole, and as Cayugad said-it is a big hole!!!
IMO as long as you have enough down range energy to assure penetration to the vitals, then you have enough energy to assure a clean kill. How else could a 45-70 at 1200fps kill a buffalo at 1,000 yards. It does not take alot of velocity or energy to get a pure lead conical to expand. And if you are shooting conical's just remember(again as Cayugad said) you have a 1/2 inch hole to start with. Tom.
MZ's have the distinct advantage of making a big, clean hole. I think the wound channel of just the bullet is all that is necessary. That is why some hunter's use a 45-70 at 1200 fps. They say they can eat right upto the hole, and as Cayugad said-it is a big hole!!!
IMO as long as you have enough down range energy to assure penetration to the vitals, then you have enough energy to assure a clean kill. How else could a 45-70 at 1200fps kill a buffalo at 1,000 yards. It does not take alot of velocity or energy to get a pure lead conical to expand. And if you are shooting conical's just remember(again as Cayugad said) you have a 1/2 inch hole to start with. Tom.
12-18-2007, 05:23 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
ORIGINAL: HEAD0001
I do not put alot of credibility on "kinetic energy's"---"killing ability". A 22-250 at 4,000 fps has more KE than a 45-70 at 1200 fps, but I sure know which one does a better job of putting game down. There are so many variables involved that it can get very confusing. If you step up to a 165 grain 30 caliber bullet at 3200 fps-then all of a sudden the KE becomes a factor again.
MZ's have the distinct advantage of making a big, clean hole. I think the wound channel of just the bullet is all that is necessary. That is why some hunter's use a 45-70 at 1200 fps. They say they can eat right upto the hole, and as Cayugad said-it is a big hole!!!
IMO as long as you have enough down range energy to assure penetration to the vitals, then you have enough energy to assure a clean kill. How else could a 45-70 at 1200fps kill a buffalo at 1,000 yards. It does not take alot of velocity or energy to get a pure lead conical to expand. And if you are shooting conical's just remember(again as Cayugad said) you have a 1/2 inch hole to start with. Tom.
I do not put alot of credibility on "kinetic energy's"---"killing ability". A 22-250 at 4,000 fps has more KE than a 45-70 at 1200 fps, but I sure know which one does a better job of putting game down. There are so many variables involved that it can get very confusing. If you step up to a 165 grain 30 caliber bullet at 3200 fps-then all of a sudden the KE becomes a factor again.
MZ's have the distinct advantage of making a big, clean hole. I think the wound channel of just the bullet is all that is necessary. That is why some hunter's use a 45-70 at 1200 fps. They say they can eat right upto the hole, and as Cayugad said-it is a big hole!!!
IMO as long as you have enough down range energy to assure penetration to the vitals, then you have enough energy to assure a clean kill. How else could a 45-70 at 1200fps kill a buffalo at 1,000 yards. It does not take alot of velocity or energy to get a pure lead conical to expand. And if you are shooting conical's just remember(again as Cayugad said) you have a 1/2 inch hole to start with. Tom.
12-18-2007, 08:36 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: southwest Ohio
Posts: 1,047
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
But if you take that 22-250 and puta "varmint" typebullet in the deer's neck it will drop on the spot!
No - I'm not advocating light calibers as being better, I'm just saying it all comes down to the bullet's design, how it performs at the velocity it is going, and putting it where it takes advantage of that performance.
That same 22-250 bullet through a deer's chest very likely will leave a wounded deer to escape & die later. A big .50 conical through a deer's neck may end up in a lost deer, too. But put that conical in the shoulder and you'll be eating venison.
As for the 800fpe minimum, it's a good suggestion, but not a scientific fact. I'd try to stay close to it as a guideline,and asthe load drops below that figure bullet placement becomes even more important.
No - I'm not advocating light calibers as being better, I'm just saying it all comes down to the bullet's design, how it performs at the velocity it is going, and putting it where it takes advantage of that performance.
That same 22-250 bullet through a deer's chest very likely will leave a wounded deer to escape & die later. A big .50 conical through a deer's neck may end up in a lost deer, too. But put that conical in the shoulder and you'll be eating venison.
As for the 800fpe minimum, it's a good suggestion, but not a scientific fact. I'd try to stay close to it as a guideline,and asthe load drops below that figure bullet placement becomes even more important.
12-18-2007, 09:46 PM
#15
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Maryland but stuck in VA
Posts: 206
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
Something tells me the 800lbs was just something thinking about how much energy it takes to disrupt internals enough to destroy them, not about holes in lungs or slicing tissue. Kinda like how hard you'd have to hit a deer in the side with a hammer (or another blunt object)?
12-19-2007, 05:30 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
ORIGINAL: wabi
But if you take that 22-250 and puta "varmint" typebullet in the deer's neck it will drop on the spot!
No - I'm not advocating light calibers as being better, I'm just saying it all comes down to the bullet's design, how it performs at the velocity it is going, and putting it where it takes advantage of that performance.
That same 22-250 bullet through a deer's chest very likely will leave a wounded deer to escape & die later. A big .50 conical through a deer's neck may end up in a lost deer, too. But put that conical in the shoulder and you'll be eating venison.
As for the 800fpe minimum, it's a good suggestion, but not a scientific fact. I'd try to stay close to it as a guideline,and asthe load drops below that figure bullet placement becomes even more important.
But if you take that 22-250 and puta "varmint" typebullet in the deer's neck it will drop on the spot!
No - I'm not advocating light calibers as being better, I'm just saying it all comes down to the bullet's design, how it performs at the velocity it is going, and putting it where it takes advantage of that performance.
That same 22-250 bullet through a deer's chest very likely will leave a wounded deer to escape & die later. A big .50 conical through a deer's neck may end up in a lost deer, too. But put that conical in the shoulder and you'll be eating venison.
As for the 800fpe minimum, it's a good suggestion, but not a scientific fact. I'd try to stay close to it as a guideline,and asthe load drops below that figure bullet placement becomes even more important.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/product-news/publication-mentions/battlin-bullets/
Chap
12-19-2007, 09:42 AM
#18
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
ORIGINAL: Zugunruhe
I think it was Elmer Keith that came up with the rule of thumb that it takes 800 ft. lbs. of energy to cleanly dispatch medium sized game. What are your thoughts on this? I mean seriously, does a deer know the difference between 700 ft. lbs. and 800 ft. lbs. down range?
I ask this because I repeatedly see kills on here at ranges far greater than where the bullet "should" be performing according to the above logic. For instance, a common load of 85 or 90 grains of Pyro RS and a 240gr. XTP moves out of the barrel at a little over 1600 fps. According to the ballistics tables, this load dips below the 800 ft. lbs. of energy at around 136 yards but I know we've seen reports here of longer shots with that powder/bullet combination.
Is this just another "how dead is dead" exercise, or is the 800 ft. lbs. benchmark a useful thought for bullet selection?
I ask this partly because my gun dislikes 777, crud rings so bad that even the second shot after a wet patch/dry patch is difficult to load irrespective of bullet type (sabot or conical). I'd like the extra velocity boost that 777 offers to up downrange energy, but if it cruds up my rifle I'll stick with RS.
I think it was Elmer Keith that came up with the rule of thumb that it takes 800 ft. lbs. of energy to cleanly dispatch medium sized game. What are your thoughts on this? I mean seriously, does a deer know the difference between 700 ft. lbs. and 800 ft. lbs. down range?
I ask this because I repeatedly see kills on here at ranges far greater than where the bullet "should" be performing according to the above logic. For instance, a common load of 85 or 90 grains of Pyro RS and a 240gr. XTP moves out of the barrel at a little over 1600 fps. According to the ballistics tables, this load dips below the 800 ft. lbs. of energy at around 136 yards but I know we've seen reports here of longer shots with that powder/bullet combination.
Is this just another "how dead is dead" exercise, or is the 800 ft. lbs. benchmark a useful thought for bullet selection?
I ask this partly because my gun dislikes 777, crud rings so bad that even the second shot after a wet patch/dry patch is difficult to load irrespective of bullet type (sabot or conical). I'd like the extra velocity boost that 777 offers to up downrange energy, but if it cruds up my rifle I'll stick with RS.
To start with accuracy is the most important commponant of range how far is long range to you?
Do you realize that while it may take a little more powder to do it Pyrodex will often give higher velocity with the same pressure?
AND there is the new powder coming to the shelves [we hope] in Apil or May, advertised as cleaner than any other sub with 10 percent more velocity and noncorosive.
Lee
12-19-2007, 11:42 AM
#19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
lemonyne-
I read the write up on the new powder on the High Performance Muzzleloading site. I'll probably try some when it hits the shelves.
Now, I should say that I'm only into my first year of muzzleloading. I do a lot of reading and researching before I get into things, and I like to tinker when it gets right down to it so muzzleloading is right up my alley. As range goes, I live in Iowa where shots in timber seldom exceed 75 yards, but field edges and CRP can easily get you out to 200 yards. I'm just starting to work up loads and looking for something with a MPBR of 150-175 yards with the ability to get the job done out to 200 if need be. Learning as I go! Current load I am working on is with 270gr. Gold Dots (.44/.429) and the green Knight/MMP sabots. I was shooting 100gr. of Pyro RS with it last night and at 25 yds. (dialing in scope) it shot really well. Took two shots to get it where I wanted it, then fired five more for effect where three found the same ragged hole and the other two were nearly touching. This is the first time I've shot that heavy a load of Pyro and I'll say the fouling on the breach plug was the worst I've experienced yet. Most loads I've shot with Pyro were with 85gr. and they were compartively clean. Absent a chronograph, I'd guess this load is probably in the area of 1700 fps.
I had started this bullet/sabot combination off with 90gr. of 7772f expecting similar velocities and then maybe working up to 100gr. and over 1800 fps. It is simply too difficult to load though in my gun on successive shots. With Pyro, a damp patch and a dry patch is all I need between shots to remove fouling in the barrel- no crud ring to deal with.
I think this bullet has potential, good compromise of weight and attainable velocity with the design to hold together on game. It also has a decent BC (.193) so longer range trajectory should be workable. I just need to shoot it some more and see what it can do. My brother has some 777 pellets, I may try them and see if the fouling is any different.
Now, back to where I started, here is an article I found that says a lot about why lower velocity, larger caliber bullets get the job done on game of all sizes- sometimes ever better than hyper velocity centerfire rounds:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/hunt_121305/index.html
I read the write up on the new powder on the High Performance Muzzleloading site. I'll probably try some when it hits the shelves.
Now, I should say that I'm only into my first year of muzzleloading. I do a lot of reading and researching before I get into things, and I like to tinker when it gets right down to it so muzzleloading is right up my alley. As range goes, I live in Iowa where shots in timber seldom exceed 75 yards, but field edges and CRP can easily get you out to 200 yards. I'm just starting to work up loads and looking for something with a MPBR of 150-175 yards with the ability to get the job done out to 200 if need be. Learning as I go! Current load I am working on is with 270gr. Gold Dots (.44/.429) and the green Knight/MMP sabots. I was shooting 100gr. of Pyro RS with it last night and at 25 yds. (dialing in scope) it shot really well. Took two shots to get it where I wanted it, then fired five more for effect where three found the same ragged hole and the other two were nearly touching. This is the first time I've shot that heavy a load of Pyro and I'll say the fouling on the breach plug was the worst I've experienced yet. Most loads I've shot with Pyro were with 85gr. and they were compartively clean. Absent a chronograph, I'd guess this load is probably in the area of 1700 fps.
I had started this bullet/sabot combination off with 90gr. of 7772f expecting similar velocities and then maybe working up to 100gr. and over 1800 fps. It is simply too difficult to load though in my gun on successive shots. With Pyro, a damp patch and a dry patch is all I need between shots to remove fouling in the barrel- no crud ring to deal with.
I think this bullet has potential, good compromise of weight and attainable velocity with the design to hold together on game. It also has a decent BC (.193) so longer range trajectory should be workable. I just need to shoot it some more and see what it can do. My brother has some 777 pellets, I may try them and see if the fouling is any different.
Now, back to where I started, here is an article I found that says a lot about why lower velocity, larger caliber bullets get the job done on game of all sizes- sometimes ever better than hyper velocity centerfire rounds:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/hunt_121305/index.html
12-19-2007, 08:33 PM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: Your thoughts on energy and range...
There is one thing you might look into: The 200gr SW has a .269 BC which is the best I have found in a bullet for muzzle loading that was light enough the push up to a really decent velocity with a normal load it also has a better SD than any other bullet you can get that kind of velocity out of.
My Omega load for them is 150gr [3 pellets] pyrodex it will shoot under 1.5 inches and several times when the wind was still the light was just right and I was shooting good I have gotten 3/4 inch 1 hole groups. I have used them and the 40cal[10mm] on deer and boar and read where a couple had use them on moose so far every one has had excellant results and they are the only bullet that I have gotten to shoot good with max loads; they shoot very well with 100grs too but the group spreads out in between. with 150 grs they shoot close to 2300 FPS which is one of the reasons they shoot so flat. 3inches high at 100 and 4 inches low at 200, I do not believe there is a bullet sabot combo that is better if your gun will shoot them like both of mine do, I have to use 110gr of 777-FF in the Triumph it shoots 777 better than Pyrodex [ the only thing wrong with it. Lee
My Omega load for them is 150gr [3 pellets] pyrodex it will shoot under 1.5 inches and several times when the wind was still the light was just right and I was shooting good I have gotten 3/4 inch 1 hole groups. I have used them and the 40cal[10mm] on deer and boar and read where a couple had use them on moose so far every one has had excellant results and they are the only bullet that I have gotten to shoot good with max loads; they shoot very well with 100grs too but the group spreads out in between. with 150 grs they shoot close to 2300 FPS which is one of the reasons they shoot so flat. 3inches high at 100 and 4 inches low at 200, I do not believe there is a bullet sabot combo that is better if your gun will shoot them like both of mine do, I have to use 110gr of 777-FF in the Triumph it shoots 777 better than Pyrodex [ the only thing wrong with it. Lee