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Winchester Apex
Has anyone handled this gun before? A friend of mine is selling a new, never fired, stainless .45 for a good price. Is it worth buying? I have never heard of any reviews on this gun. Thanks
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RE: Winchester Apex
Never owned or shot one, but if the price was right I probably would. :D
Here's some reviews..... http://reviews.basspro.com/2010/48924/reviews.htm |
RE: Winchester Apex
cabelas has the stainless steel/camo stock Apex for $180.
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RE: Winchester Apex
I bought one last year....I have killed 2 deer with it in 2 years in NY's Muzzleloader season. For the money it is a great gun! IMHO!
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RE: Winchester Apex
FYI, the Apex is actually andmade by the same spanish company "BPI" as the CVA Kodiak. A design approach to compete with T/C's Omega.
Given the less popular.45 caliber, I would say the overall value of the Apex is slightlyless as well. Given that Cabela's is pushing these out the door for $189.99 retail - If the deal is exceptional,you can register the warrantyand somewhere less than $190, then I would consider it. Need to ask yourself though, is this the ML and caliber (.45)that you really want? If so, then buy it at a great deal. There are loads for the .45, just not nearly as many as .50cal. The .45 will certainly be adequate for deer and other game in the medium category. Tahquamenon |
RE: Winchester Apex
i'd say a 405 grain conical over 70 grains pyrodex would drop a buffalo @ 2-300 yards with that .45 apex
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RE: Winchester Apex
ORIGINAL: frontier gander i'd say a 405 grain conical over 70 grains pyrodex would drop a buffalo @ 2-300 yards with that .45 apex |
RE: Winchester Apex
[align=left]Dangerous Muzzleloadersby Randy Wakeman[/align]In my opinion,far too many people have had their lives destroyed by reportedly using cheap imported muzzleloaders as directed by manufacturer's printed instructions. There are no muzzleloading standards, and there is no governing body on the American muzzleloading scene to effect any semblance of quality control or reasonable safety testing. There is a huge, ever increasing body of evidence that shows CVA branded guns (BPI, CVA Winchester Muzzleloading, New Frontier, etc.) can be quite dangerous with factory recommended loads. The CVA Apollo gunhad so many personal injury claims filed against it that the "old CVA" was forced into receivership. I have seen nothing to indicate that theresub-standard proofs and poor quality control is any better now than it was then. http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm |
RE: Winchester Apex
No argument here, not that I always agreewith Mr. Wakeman.
Which only one of many reasons why I'll never own another one (CVA/BPI that is). |
RE: Winchester Apex
sandman do u even know anything about the cva inline recall? It only affects inline cva's made in 1995 and 1996. BPI bought out cva and still operates under the name cva.
Toby bridges had a savage blow up on him. TC back in the 1970s had problems with American made Douglas barrels going kaboom. CVA's problem in those 2 years was due to a bad breech plug design and a shipment of rifles that had weak steel. Is CVA's inspection better now? Big time better. Austin and Halleck is .. well was, made in spain and was considered high quality by the gun ho " buy american made products!" guys. Wheres proof that cva, has these barrel blasters? Im not talking the 95-96 model, im talking right nows cva models. Dont always believe what you read. Do some research on randy wakemans back ground and you'll be shocked at what you find ;) You can actually email him and ask what the latest cva had barrel issues and he can not and will not tell you. Ask him for a list of the cva's that did have problems and you'll get nothing but a dusty email with no info. |
RE: Winchester Apex
ORIGINAL: frontier gander Is CVA's inspection better now? Big time better. Not wishing to pick a fight, just would like you to substantiate your claim. |
RE: Winchester Apex
well, the first shipment of the cva elites, 5000 to be exact, were sent back because the inspecter wasnt happy with the quality they sent him.
Plus we dont see any new model cva's having barrel problems now do we? |
RE: Winchester Apex
Oh plus they have the Bergara barrel now going on their rifles. Which seems to be a very high quality barrel from what ive seen.
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RE: Winchester Apex
The Bergara barrels are the only ones I would trust from BPI/CVA. They are the redeeming factor for CVA. They have made the CVA name, respectable again.
As long as Knight, TC, and Savage are still in business, I won't bother with CVA. |
RE: Winchester Apex
I believe the Bergara (also made in Spain)barrels are only available on the CVA Optima Elite whichwas engineered as a centerfire frame from the beginning andshould conformtonorth american centerfirestandards (SAMMI). The lions share of CVA products are not Bergara barreled(inlcuding the Win Apex in the beginning of the thread).
Also Bergara is not indiginous to CVA Optima Elite, they are also marketing barrels for the T/C Encore frame. Good for them. Yes their (Bergara)website does claim to beguaranteed betteraccuracy than a factory barrel and superior quality. However, does not quantify or qualifyhow this achieved nor backed up. Not saying Bergara barrels are not spectacular, but other than website claims not sure if they are the next best thing to sliced bread. They may very well be but FG, you are going on as if these claims are factual and I still wonder how you substantiate this. http://www.bergarabarrels.com/ No, thankfully theredoes not seem to be the catastrophic problems of the past with CVA or other ML makers. However, having owned CVA hardware in the past and having worked on a bunch of CVA's over the years gives me the impression that their quality is not something that I would care to invest in. If you or other folks wish to, fine. In fact, I never said "don't buy CVA". I just said that I did not want to. ;) |
RE: Winchester Apex
ever take a took at a winchester muzzleloader and compair it to a cva? The quality is deff. a lot better. I know this because i actually own a winchester. This is actually amusing about the spanish barrels. I dont see anyone complaining about the spanish barrels on the traditions and never see any complaints about them going off. You brought up the subject of cva having bad barrels, which actually is incorrect, so....
Cant call'em bad when they are the #1 selling brand muzzleloader. On another forum, a guys brand new traditions flintlock wouldnt spark, everyone talked down on this lock, cheaply made, poor customer service blah blah blah. I related my experience that i got from traditions, he took the rifle back to the store he bought it, They called traditions and guess what? He got the service i did, but better. The store replaced the frizzen right then and there free of charge. Off topic but hey, you're the one that took a left turn and got it started that way ;) |
RE: Winchester Apex
Does it say MADE IN CHINA? lol Lee
Buy American |
RE: Winchester Apex
Speaking of china, If you want a dangerous muzzleloader, Buy one of those old Japanese build kentuckys lol. I think they also made a tower pistol.
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RE: Winchester Apex
wow i didnt know people hated CVA guns that much!! i dont,i like my cva firebolt but love my winchester apex and got rid of my piece of junk thompson black diamond years ago.all but a couple of my friends and family all have CVA muzzleloaders and are very happy with them.looking at my apex i dont why that would be considered a cheap made, dangerous to your life barrel!
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RE: Winchester Apex
I did not bring up the bad barrels from CVA or any other company. I said that I did not disagree with that statement.
In fact, I think (my .02) that it appears (as only I have handled and closely inspected) that CVA, Traditions, Etc have improved their quality substantially. However, at this time I have not noticed enough of an overall improvement that I would care to invest in nor is there a product that I am interested in other than an ML from Traditions. Also in fact, I was really dissapointed to see CVA drop the traditional sidelocks from their product lineup. What a shame. There is merit in this discussion as it's important for folks to know more about the products from all companies and for folks to share their experiences. I have come very close to purchasing a Traditions Pursuit Pro XLT. The only stumbling block for me so far is the trigger pull on the ones that I have handled measured out at 7+ pounds. Too heavy for me. Traditionsanswer is they will lower the trigger pull to 4 pounds for not only a fee but I pay for the shipping. I think the ML should have a 3-4 pound triggerto begin with, so I have an issue of having to pay extra for a feature that I feel should be equipped with anyway. Some folks could care less about a trigger, I however do care. I would not purchase an ML from any company with a heavy trigger. So for Traditions, I see this as a gap in customer service and quality as the ML should not pass musterwith a heavy trigger or should nothave the customer bear the cost of their lack of quality assurance. As far as beingthe #1 ML company, that's true CVA is #1 in sales and have been for some time. The reason for this is (in my view) is more the price point than the superior quality and overall reputationas compared to other companies.It was CVA's agreement with Walmart that propelled the company to #1 in sales. A very inexpensive entry level ML. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has several hundred dollars to invest in an ML, so the entry level ML serves an important need. The difference I have noticed between Winchester and CVA models is with overall finish, hardware and furniture (sights and so on) which is important in my view, as if you look at the lowest priced ML's, they typically have the cheapest fitment, finish and hardware. Still ok if that's what someone wants. Not for me so say what one person will want versus what I would want for myself. The more ML makers that are making decent product the better in my view. I only wish there were more companies offeringproduction traditional ML's. As far as left turns, I am not a NASCAR fan so while I do make a left hand turn on occassion, I do not do it by design. Tahquamenon |
RE: Winchester Apex
Frontier gander I did my home work
Yes I do know; I even listed the gun involved CVA’s (Apollo) and I agree other companies have had problems but none to the point of shutting down due to lawsuits. Toby is one in a million, TC changed there specs and uses there own foundry. NOT all Spanish barrels (Bergara) are bad, even if one barrel failed not all barrels from that manufacturer are bad. But be aware that it is unclear what the bursting PSI is of the European 'proof testing'. So it is unknown for certain how safe they are if subjected to the pressures created by 150 grain max loads. The minimum pressure and barrel strengths are surmised to be 1.5x that amount. The standard CVA/Winchester mark is 700 kp/cm² - that is STAMPED on the barrel! Roughly equal to 10,000 PSI, even a 1.5x multiplication factor as some suggest would mean the barrel is safe for 15,000 PSI. Yet, that same gun's instructions call for a max load of 150 grains of BP, which depending on the projectile; will result in over 20,000 PSI easy (Lyman Ballistic Laboratories shows a minimum of 25,000 PSI peak pressures in a three pellet load depending on the projectile). I'm not trying to cause an argument but the math does NOT add up for me and its fact not an opinion. The Spanish proof house (House of Edier) will proof any barrel to any pressure you want if you pay and increased price for each level of testing. If you want a barrel series tested to 100,000 they would attempt it but you will pay an additional price. BPI (CVA), Traditions, and A&H all use Spanish barrels true. However it is my understanding that A&H has since switched to a higher proofed barrel with special steel or heat treatment or both. CVA and Traditions have stayed with the minimum standard. Neither BPI (CVA) nor Traditions actually build their gun that is done in Spain these two companies market the product in the US. They are not American made and that opens a whole other can of worms.Currently BPI (CVA) does not have testing facilities in the US this is the main difference the other companies test and post there results based on US specs. You know this whole thing could be put to bed if BPI (CVA) and Traditions would step up to doing some legitimate testing and report the results. The Savage 10ML-II is the best built front loader of them all, using the Savage magnum center fire barrel as a starting point TC’s foundry operates in compliance with MIL-I-45208 and MIL-C-45662 specs. The Encore and Pro hunter have Bergara Barrels but are tested in the US to the above specs Knight uses Green Mountain barrels as well as Ruger All threetested in the US and published do I need to go on. It all comes down to an informed decision by the shooter if the price is good and you feel comfortable buy it but don’t think just because it says Winchester its quality. My 2 cents |
RE: Winchester Apex
I'll no longer waste my time on this topic. You or anyone else has no 100% dead on balls accurate Proof of whats done in the BPI factorys or i should say, who actually makes the barrel for them.
Oh and the 150 grain mag loads rated for the cva's is with pellets only and a 300 grain sabot. 100 grains loose powder with a max conical weight of 400 grains. Talk to Toby Bridges about his Savage. |
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