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frontier gander 12-13-2007 02:53 PM

How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
There have been Way to many "What happened to my bullet And Or,My deer ran off with no blood trail" Posts lately who post about using powerbelts with 150 grain magnum charges and then poor results when shooting a deer from 30 yards or less. Or even not so great accuracy.

I have used these bullets for almost 6 years and have learned the correct way of shooting these bullets to perform the best on not only paper, But most importantly on game. Now some rifles such as my Winchester, CVA hawken, cva bobcat and Cabelas hawken, Love these bullets and shoot them accuratley. Rifles such as Knight, TC and others report not so great accuracy. Wheather the bullet will shoot accurately is up to the rifle and yourself on finding the right bullet/powder combo.

Powerbelts are all we use in our hunting group. That group being Myself, father and my brother.

My brother and father prefer the 295 grain aerotip powerbelts over 90 grains Pyrodex RS and both have had excellent pass through results that dropped the deer " Lung shots".

I shoot a .45 powerbelt in 225 grain and after testing, 80 grains pyrodex or triple 7 offer the best expansion and devestating performance on the deer i shot.

The ONLY way you can use 150 grain magnum charges with the powerbelt is if the deer you are shooting is 140+ yards away. Anything under and you'll more than likely not get good performance. If you do so, You'll more than likely end up the the entrance hole and exit hole the same diameter as the bullet it self.

A couple stories from when i used to use Mag charges with powerbelts. Anyone who has used mag charges and a 245 or 295 powerbelt and shot the deer through the lungs should reconize the results.

146 Yard shot with 150 grains pyrodex rs, 295 grain powerbelt aerotip. Bullet went right behind the shoulder, Exited and the deer ran maybe 10-15 yards before dropping well within easy sight. After gutting, the entrance wound and exit were the size of the bullets diameter. Body cavity filled up with blood but did not leave a trail due to no bullet expansion. Lungs were destroyed.

The next year,
148 yard shot, 120 grains pyrodex RS, 245 grain hollow point powerbelt. Bullet weight through the front of the neck, exited in front of the shoulder. Deer dropped. Exit hole again, size of the bullets diameter. No blood, But then again, the deer dropped in its track from the neck shot.

Next year, Brothers cva hawken, 90 grains pyrodex rs, 295 powerbelt. 90 yard shot, Bullet hit the deer in the spine, She dropped but the bullet just nicked the spine and she stood back up. Another shot from his rifle hit the deer through the lungs and exited and the deer dropped in its tracks with an exit hole you could stick 2 fingers into and lots of blood on the ground.

Dads cabelas Hawken, 295 grain powerbelt, 90 grains RS, Frontal shot through the chest that broke the collar bone and shoulder and exited behind the deers last rib. Deer went apox. 30 yards. Fair blood trail. The exit wound was high so it really didnt offer much blood due to the angle it exited.

Now this is where the Powerbelt VS low powder charge starts to really get good and is one of my best hunts ever.

This years hunt, Deer Creek .45 sidelock, 225 grain powerbelt aerotip Over 80 grains FFFg Triple 7 " loose". Shot distance, 80 yards. Bullet hit the deer squarely in the shoulder, I saw the deer hunch forward and she staggered off and once i got to where i shot her, i followed a short 5 yard, massive blood trail to where she dropped and then rolled/slide 20-30 feet, dead. The shot took out her heart, sucked one lung, high into her chest cavity and just shredded it into mush. Exit wound hit her in the actual Bone and busted it. Bullet was recovered just under the hide in a perfect mushroom and no loss of bullet weight.

Later on that evening my dad is carrying my deer creek .45, same load as above. Shoots a decent sized doe, 50 yard broadside shot, Bullet enters perfectly behind the shoulder and exits out of opposite shoulder and breaks bone/exits cleanly. After searching for a couple minutes to find where she was standing, " deer was in thick forage" I found where she stood when my dad shot her and there was a 5-6" dia Aspen tree with one side covered and dripping with bright red blood. Looking on the ground, we found a big splatter here, couple feet later, more blood, thicker and getting heavier. Got into some really thick foliage and the hill slanted steep and after that we found where she died and slid down the bank and into some fallen timber. It was only a 15 yard tracking job, but the heavy timber and foliage made it tricky and you had to take your time so you wouldnt miss any sign.

Any of you that have hunted in thick aspen/pine groves know the sticker bushes, thick grasses and plants quite well and know its quite a trick to track in that stuff :D
Exit wound took out the entire front shoulder. Coyotes ate good that night.
The entrance shot is confusing. When i lifted the deer up, the bullet passing through the body cavity SUCKED the stomach into the chest cavity and pushed a 4-5" dia. baloon sized part of the stomach out of the entrance wound. How, i have no clue to this day.

Powerbelts perform BEST with a charge of 80 grains of powder, This is based on my testings that ive done on items such as rocks, Thick logs And most importantly, The actual game i am hunting.. Anything over that and they will start to lack. Now keep in mind that i recommend 80 grain charges maximum when using a lighter weight 225-245-295-300 grain powerbelt. A 338+ grain powerbelt i would use a maximum of 90 grain powder charge. These charges are what i find to perform best on big game.

If you are using a powder charge thats either higher or lower than what i recommend and are having good success and are happy with what you have, By all means, Please continue to use it.

Im no expert, Im just a guy who has spent $$$ on these bullets, shot game and found a perfect load "For me anyways" which offers the best performance for the powerbelt bullet.

Todays modern inline and their 150 grain mag charges is over kill, and is not needed. Its surprising to see how many people use 150 grain charges and find out that they usually only shoot their deer at 50 to 75 yards. When using the powerbelt, a 150 grain charge and a target being only 20 feet to 75 yards out there, You are asking for trouble.

Some may read this and say, He only used 80 grains triple7? No way! Thats not enough. Sorry gents but you do not need 150 mag charges to kill game. My rifle shooting a 225 grain powerbelt is only 4" low @ 150 yards and still carrys over 900 some odd Ftlbs of energy at that distance.

Shot placement, Knowledge of the bullet and how it could act, all come into account of how quickly the game goes down.

If using a lighter weight powerbelt, Do yourself a huge favor, drop your charges down to 80 grains. I dont care if its T7, pyrodex, APP. Whichever powder you are using, Keep it at 80 grains! You will love the results when you pull that trigger.

Again, I USE these bullets, Ive learned what powder charge it takes to get excellent performance.

This is just my advice for the powerbelt "Newbie" Or the Hunter who has been left scratching his head after shooting the game he was aiming at" who was unaware on how to correctly shoot these bullets to get the best performance out of them.

Some may say, Man why should i even bother with these when there are other Conicals out there that can handle more powder? Thats very true and why should you pay the price for them when you have to keep your charges lower than you normally would?
My reasons and why i use them:
#1. Easy loading " No bullet starter needed " In my rifle"
#2. They shoot excellent out of my rifle and hold tight groups even after 5 shots on a dirty barrel.
#3. They perform excellent and leave my game within easy tracking distance.
#4.They are the only conical i can find in lower weights that allow me to shoot 150 yards. I use a .45cal and want the extra range.
#5. They have proven to be worth every cent i have spent on these and will continue.

Such states as Colorado, Where i live, Is a Conical Only state during muzzle loading season.

Lets keep this thread clean. You all know who you are ;) This is for those who love the easy loading, accurate powerbelt but who lack the experience or were unaware on how to use them properly to avoid an unhappy hunt.

I hope those who use these bullets will take my info seriously and consider giving my recommended loads a try on their next hunt. Ive had nothing but great success with these bullets and lower powder charges.

The picture below, Take note to the shot placement. I really prefer this shot when using a powerbelt. It puts them down quickly and as you'll see, Leaves a really easy to follow, short blood trail.

Good Luck and Happy Hunting to everyone.



This is my doe i shot at 80 grains with a 225 grain powerbelt, 80 grains T7.
Entrance shot,
Take note to blood all over the ground above the deers rear end and above its head

Bullet exited here but is still under the hide. Which was fine with me! The shoulder bone to the left of my finger was broken by the bullet.



Recoverd 225 grain powerbelt. No weight loss.

Part of the short 5 yard blood trail i followed.

Entrance shot.
I was able to fit 3 fingers into this hole

Exit wound,
Able to fit 2 fingers into this one, Along with the broken shoulder bone.

A good sized 120-130 lb mule deer doe and the little .45 that could.



http://www.gbofreeforums.info/ThePow...orum/index.php





frontier gander 12-13-2007 03:32 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
....




Beezer 12-13-2007 03:34 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
That bottom pic looks like an area or two I hunt, except they are covered in pines and weed thickets about seven feet tall.

I've been shooting 100grs of Pyrodex pellets and 245 hollowpoint Powerbelts. I recently bought two packs of 245gr Aerotips and noticed that the accuracy improved greatly. I was actually considering buying a box of 30gr Pyrodex pellets and using 80grs per shot load. I've read many posts and much information about how Powerbelts react to different powder loads and all seem to reflect that the bullets perform best with lighter loads and at slower speeds. The ease of loading is the main reason I'll continue using them whether it's hunting or just shooting. But info from someone with experience helps everyone get the best out of the equipment, thanks.

ahankster 12-13-2007 03:38 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Sorry,
You posted your opinion.
I posted mine. In my opinion, they are junk.
You see a few deer killed every year using them.
So far this year I have killed four, my kids have each killed one and on the reservation I am responsible for, we have killed over 40. I personally have seen most of these deer brought in and cleaned. The two game wardens work for me, if I didn't see the deer come in they did. We also have had to track several this year that were maimed with these things. Less this year than in years past because the word is finally getting out. Too often we find deer two to five hundred yards away, sometimes the next day with dogs, with holes going in that are in a perfect kill shot and no hole going out. Even seen twice bullets blow up on shoulders and not penetrate into the chest cavity.

So, you may consider yourself a pro and me an amature, I could care less.

But, in my amatureish experience, they are junk.

Hank

frontier gander 12-13-2007 03:45 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
..

SteveBNy 12-13-2007 04:16 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
They may work ok when used "properly" by pros, but are way overpriced (list price) and too problematic for me.
I am glad they work for you.

Steve

Tuco 12-13-2007 04:17 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
I tried them and were just not that accurate out of my Knight Disc. My brother uses them in his Knight Wolverine and they shoot just fine. I think shot placement is more important that bullet performance on deer. A 50 cal hole thru the lungs/heart will kill any deer. I personally use Lightfield 300grain lead bullets because my gun shoots them the best.

Semisane 12-13-2007 04:20 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Good post Gander. I've never used Powerbelts and probably never will - just like my Gold Bonds. But if I ever did have occasion to use PBs I would certainly listen to the voice of experience and use your recommended load. The manufacturer should copy your post and package it with their bullets.

Little story here: We had a new guy in camp this year who hadn't hunted with his CVA magbolt in four or five years, and had never killed a deer with it. On the range before the season I was watching him sight in. He dropped three Pyrodex pellets then a 245 PB down the barrel. He then proceeded to bounce his ramrod as hard as he could on top of the loaded bullet abour a half dozen times. He was shooting a nice eight inch group at fifty yards. After a while I asked him why he was loading the way he did and he said "that's the way 'they' told me to". I suggested he try two pellets and seat the bullet firmly - no bouncing rod. He did, and was amazed at theaccuracy he got.Killed a nice doe at 60 yards two weeks later. Some guys just don't know - gotta' help them along.

Carpmaster 12-13-2007 04:25 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Dad used them along with his buddies too, they had great results with them on paper and on game but they shot lighter loads as mentioned by gander.......muzzleloading don't always have to be a power and long range game!

Great post!!!

Carpmaster 12-13-2007 04:26 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
BTW you ever try the 444 grain flat nose, to me that one sounds like the true cats meow of a hunting bullet.

frontier gander 12-13-2007 04:33 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
444 grain powerbelt? Im 6'2 and only 160lbs, I aint that dumb enough to shove that big of bullet down the bore of my rifle:D:D A steel recoil pad doesnt absorb much recoil.

Heaviest powerbelt ive shot was a 348 grain powerbelt out of my dads hawken and also out of my .54 flintlock i had. Bullets expand to the size of silver dollars with 80 grains powder. These i tested at 100 yards on a railroad tie. Tested by accident. Didnt expect them to have that much drop!
Very good elk bullets IMO.

wabi 12-13-2007 06:21 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
I've never been able to get good consistant accuracy with powerbelts. I've tried them in a couple rifles that did OK for a group or two, then "fliers" started showing up. Not sure of the charges I was using, but I usually start off with around 80 grains of loose powder for any load I test. I like the theory behind powerbelts, I like conicals and they are basicaly a conical with a gas seal attached.
For example - with my T/C NewEnglander I tried powerbelts. 1st group @ 50 yards was about 1" and I thought I'd found a winner. Next group was about 6"! Same rifle, same shooter, same load, why the huge difference in results?????

frontier gander 12-13-2007 06:30 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Thats why i said in the first post that rifles such as my winchester, cabelas hawken, cva bobcat, cva hawken love the powerbelts.

Could also have been the powder. I know the last pound of T7 i had, went to hell after i used half the can.

If powerbelts will shoot in your rifle or not is up to the rifle. All have a mind of their own. This thread is for those who get accuracy from them and are either new to the sport of muzzleloading or have used powerbelts and and didnt get good results on the game they shot.
So far all of my rifles love them except for my slower twist 1:66 rifles.

oldrookie 12-13-2007 06:53 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Frontier I agree with you 100% To the gentleman that had to go looking for the mamed deer, you don't know the specifics other than the slug used was a powerbelt. Shot selection, conditions, etc all of it comes in to play. To make a generalized statement they are junk, I do not buy into.

The powerbelt will perform as intended at approximately 1,500 feet per second. Anymore than that, and your pushing it too hard. In my opinion, its up to the shooter to play with their loads and determine how much powder will achieve this out of their chosen rifle.

Beezer 12-13-2007 07:03 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Just for a hip-shot frontier, I'm shooting a CVA Wolf that I just bought. I'll give a little input into why I chose PBs to use. I bought my CVA from Cabelas and got it with the scope and kit. The kit includes Shock Wave sabots but I chose to use what CVA recommends for their guns. Yes, I know that CVA ownsthe company and makes the bullets. But, Ford doesn't recommend putting a Dodge computer chip in an F-150 do they? No, because Ford knows what will and won't work properly and best with their vehicles. As well, PBs were designed and manufactured for CVA muzzleloaders FIRST, and others second. They were made and paired to CVAs to acheive the best accuracy. I attempted to put a Shock Wave in the barrel of mine once while getting used to the gun and it stopped nearly dead before the entire bullet and sabot were into the barrel. I promptly took out the breech plug, dumped the pellets and grabbed the sabot and bullet with pliers, ripping it out. Until there's something better that's easier to load, I'll stick with what I'm using.

An accurate shot on a deer will put it down, period. When I started talking to hunters I know, guns hunters said shoot for the shoulder and the two bowhunters I know said shoot for the lungs regardless of what weapon you choose. All should remember, a 50 yard run is only 150ft. If you stand at point of impact and walk out 150ft in any direction, you still wouldn't cover 1 acre. I don't know about most people here, but I can start in one spot and walk a circular grid search of the acre around my house in about 15 to 20 minutes. From what I've seen and heard, a good lung/heart shot will have the deer down within 100yds. That's not unreasonable to search by yourself.

Don't mind hankster, that's another part of the hunting equation.I bowhunt and use a Parker bow. Parker isn't the most expensive or the most popular and doesn't even rank on most people's lists. But, it's a good bow and I like it because it gets the job done as good as anything that costs three times as much when it's used properly. In my honest opinion Matthews, Bowtech, Hoyt and a few other bows are overpriced and don't do the job any better. But, I don't beat them down because that's what someone else chooses to use. To each his own as long as he pays the bill. I wouldn't bother with someone who wants to beat down your choice of bullet. For every deer that hankster has seen lost after shot with a PB, there've probably been several dozen that look like yours. I don't care what weapon, bullet, load, arrow, broadhead or anything else....it's the hunter that makes the kill.

oldrookie 12-13-2007 07:14 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Nice post Beezer. Hit them in the boiler room.....won't matter. By the way, I don't have a $1000 setup with my bow.....but wouldn't trade it.....Browning Yukon....gets er done.

frontier gander 12-13-2007 07:21 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
you mean to tell me that my $100 PSE Nova shooting on sale @ walmart,Carbon arrows wont get any respect?


oldrookie 12-13-2007 07:27 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 

ORIGINAL: frontier gander

you mean to tell me that my $100 PSE Nova shooting on sale @ walmart,Carbon arrows wont get any respect?
Aint the arrow....its the Indian!:D

frontier gander 12-13-2007 07:28 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
good one oldrookie

gt2003 12-13-2007 08:57 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
FG,
Thanks for the post. I don't shoot PB's and probably never will. But I really appreciate you putting the info. out there. Hopefully those that shoot these bullets will listen. Thanks again for the info, Greg

LKNCHOPPERS 12-13-2007 09:06 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Thanks for the info.

Pglasgow 12-13-2007 11:40 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 

The entrance shot is confusing. When i lifted the deer up, the bullet passing through the body cavity SUCKED the stomach into the chest cavity and pushed a 4-5" dia. baloon sized part of the stomach out of the entrance wound. How, i have no clue to this day.
FG,

There used to circulate tales (perhaps they still circulate) that goats were put in armored personal carriers when testing the 30mm rounds from the A-10's Gatlin gun. The uranium tipped 30mm bullets pierced the carriers with small holes and exited with holes large enough, it was rumored, to SUCK the goats right out! I never witnessed it so I can not account for the tales reliability. There were also speculations at the time, (before any actual combat), that A10's wouldn't last longer than 5 minutes in combat but would detroy dozens of tanks in that span of time. It turns out that A10's weren't so easy to take down in combat, though the effectiveness of the A10 as anti-tank weapon was not underestimated.

Back to the concept of SUCKING. A bullet always has a vacuum behind it and pressured area in front of it. So I'm not surprised about a portion of the stomach being sucked out of the cavity. Anyone who has hunted rabbits and squirrels has found guts hanging out too when body shots were taken. Same principle.

As for PB's effectiveness in killing game, it depends solely on impact speed and shot placement. I can now also vouch that PB's are very effective projectiles when used like a sportsman should use them. The 405 did the job for me with just 70 grains of 3f Goex. With in 100 yards, I'd put it up against 100 grains of 777 and 250 shockwave. Now I would not maverick shots. I wouldn't shoot anus's, spines, or heads. But give me shot for a pass through the vital area, everything except where the bullet entry will strike with glancing impact a scapula (frontally quartered scapula shot are no-nos with any bullet and any rifle, bullets can ricochet on things as soft as water, so they can and in fact do on bone also) and I guarantee you that my deer will be just as dead as his and just as fast also.

A large all lead hollowpoint impacting at optimum velocity (less than 1300 fps) is more efficient at getting its energy and momentum into the vital cavity than a lighter faster moving bullet. A high velocity projectile MUST BE jacketed, or it can not get into a large game animal with sufficient integrity to exit. It will just mush into an inverted cup and fragment. So a jacket will control expansion and allow the bullet to enter the vitals. Even so, it will do this less efficiently than a slower, heavier bullet with the same impact energy.

There are two reasons for this. First higher speed at impact will result in a greater proportion of energy being dissipated at right angles to bullet flight. Second, the larger bullet has superior momentum and with retain a greater proportion of that momentum (and energy) allowing for a larger wound channel.

That said, given the limits of velocity one needs to impose on all lead projectiles, it is clear that to achieve higher impact energy one can only go with heavier projectiles. While with jacketed bullets, one just adds powder. Even so, there is diminishing returns and ultimately, opposite effects can be realized if the impact velocity exceeds the design of the jacketed bullet. Under enough velocity, they too will behave like powerbelts at 1400 fps. Too much velocity simply ruins any bullet's performance. The advantage of jacketed bullets is not terminal performance perse, RATHER, it is better terminal performance at the velocities required to achieve flatter trajectory.

All lead hollowpoints are not for everyone. They are for persons who want to use an relatively primitive technology. They would be persons who may enjoy the challenge of getting close to their quarry. Folks who should refrain from using them would be those who want to maverick shots like head shots, anus shots, and spine shots or to take shots over 120 yards. It would be far better to have a scoped rifle with a shockwave or gold-dot for that.

I think you are on the right track recommending the 80 grain limit for PB's.

Phil

falcon 12-14-2007 07:06 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
When i decided to get back into muzzleloader hunting, i borrowed a friends Knight to hunt with. Was carrying the gun muzzle down and i saw the Powerbelt bullet come tumbling out on the ground. Solved my problem with that bullet by buying some saboted XTP bullets from China Outlets. Will never usea Powerbelt bulletagain. :D;)

oldrookie 12-14-2007 07:33 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Thanks for the post Phil. That was an interesting read. As far as the powerbelt falling out of the barrel, as in any slug, powerbelts are not going to work well for all barrels. My slug of choice is the 300g hornady xtp. I have read numerous shooters say for some reason the xtp is not for them.

It all gets back to knowing what works best with your own rifle and the conditions the rifle is going to be used. That too is what makes muzzleloading so much darn fun.

sjsfire 12-14-2007 07:38 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 

ORIGINAL: falcon

When i decided to get back into muzzleloader hunting, i borrowed a friends Knight to hunt with. Was carrying the gun muzzle down and i saw the Powerbelt bullet come tumbling out on the ground. Solved my problem with that bullet by buying some saboted XTP bullets from China Outlets. Will never usea Powerbelt bulletagain. :D;)

If my memory serves me, I believe Frontier Gander had the same issue with Sabertooths. I think if anyone wants to shoot the Powerbelts his experience and knowledge should be looked at carefully......the guy's done his homework on the Powerbelts. Good post

falcon 12-14-2007 07:46 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
"I think if anyone wants to shoot the Powerbelts his experience and knowledge should be looked at carefully......the guy's done his homework on the Powerbelts."

Yes, he has and i appreciate his experience with that bullet.

lemoyne 12-14-2007 08:58 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
I think we all ought to respect each others opinion, and person theres no need for any one to get upset.
frontier gander, I worked with them untill I could make them work right I even talked to the company about them and if you use them with them 70 to 90 gr they recommend they will do a good job, I decieded not to use them, I like heavier loads than they work well with because some times I need to shoot longer range and there are much better bullets for that. To me even the Sabortooth which is a similar bullet has many advantages including working with heavier loads right and price. I guess the thing that bothers me most is how easy they load, it is hard for me to believe that they stay where they belong on top the powder if you should happen to bump the gun wrong; but to be honest I have not heard of many problem with that and a lot of people have been using them for a long time.
I think that some people forget that PB were popular a long time a go and were designed when the top load was about 100gr of RS, I am not sure but I think it was before inlines. Lee


Tahquamenon 12-14-2007 09:27 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
I would agree that a PowerBelt should not be pushed too fast. Although I have not shot game with a PB, I have seen the results of game shot with them and I would come to the conclusion that the PB's were pushed too fast (Ultra fragmented) in those instances.

When attempt to work up a load with an ML, the load that I eventually end up hunting with is the primer, powder, projectile combination that is the absolute most accurate. Which is not always 80gr of powder. In fact I only have a couple of 50cal sidelocks that shoot the best with an 80gr loose charge of 3FG Swiss and that is with a PRB and a wad.

The folks I know that threw in the towel with PB's gave me their left over bullets. I have not tried PB's in everything ML I own (that would take a long time), but I have not been able to get PB's to print as well in my or other folks ML's as other projectiles, which is the main reason why I don't hunt with them. I do however sometimes carry a PB load for a quicker follow-up shot, which I have yet to need.

Folks shooting Powerbelts and 50gr T7 Pellets in two or three pellet combinations are from the beginning (according to your findings) are pushing them too fast when considering say a 100yard or less hunting shot area. I would agree. Should state that I am not a pellet fan for a variety of reasons but I understand why some folks like/use pellets.

I am interested with the PB platinum's as the claim is that they are harder than the copper jacketed and will likely give them a try on first the accuracy department and then if the accuracy is acceptable (to me), then try them in a hunting situation.

Thanks much FG, for the powerbelt write-up. I would say folks should forget shooing PB with preformed pellets and only with loose powder. Even though you can get a 30gr equivlelant pellet + a 50gr to make 80gr load, your best ability to workup a load is with loose powder and a measure with at least 5gr increments.

Tahquamenon

cayugad 12-14-2007 09:43 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Powerbelts are very accurate in some of my rifles, and not so good to down right terrible in others. I have only shot perhaps a hundred of them in my testing, maybe more I never really kept count. I have yet to shoot an animal with them. I have read the horror stories about them and normally from what I have read, powerbelts shot with large powder charges, strikinganimalsat close range tend to fragment in some cases. This I can understand.

Frontier Gander posted his personal experiences and his testing results in an excellent manner I might add. I have since, listening to his reports in the past determined that if I were to hunt with a powerbelt, I would not exceed 90 grains of 2f powder.

YET - since shooting some of the large conicals like Bull Shop or my home casted,in different rifles, I have also came to the conclusion that there is no need for the $1.00+ or more perbullet powerbelts. I have a couple rifles that are true conical shooters. Those are my go to rifles. The other rifles can shoot sabots or roundball. Still, if the opportunity did present itself to shoot powerbelts, this information presented here, would be of great value. Thanks for the post.

Branson 12-14-2007 10:52 AM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
frontier, thanks for the write-up on PBs. They shoot well out of my gun, and are a little less expensive than some of the saboted bullets (the ones i've tried wont fit anyways). I really wouldn't mind hearing your opinion on shooting PBs through shoulders though. From the horror stories, I'm skeptical on how well they'd perform shooting through shoulders (love the picture of that muley doe)and the odds of getting a complete pass-through. I need a blood trail, as I'll admit I'm a poor tracker. Once again, I really appreciate the writeup and you sharing your experiences with these projectiles.

Beezer 12-14-2007 05:01 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 

I am interested with the PB platinum's as the claim is that they are harder than the copper jacketed and will likely give them a try on first the accuracy department and then if the accuracy is acceptable (to me), then try them in a hunting situation.
I was under the impression that Powerbelts tend to fragment at higher load levels because they are harder to begin with. This would make sense, as a softer bullet pushed at a higher load would tend to spread more, or at least common sense would say so. If the fragmentation is actually caused by hardness, I wouldn't bother using them. Something that claims to be harder than the original to begin with seems to offer itself up to more problems and more fragmentation issues.

Granted, my experience is not over the top with firearms, especially those used for hunting. So, if any of you guys with more experience can enlighten me and elaborate or disprove my theory please do so.

frontier gander 12-14-2007 05:11 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
The powerbelt Platinums have the better Jacket that holds the bullet together. With the copper series, its a very very thin plating and is wrapped around soft lead. This copper jacket, splatters when shot at high FPS when it comes into contact with something heavy such as bone. Slowing it down with the charges i recommend, you wont have this problem. Its not that the Platinums are "harder" They offer a better jacket that is supposed to hold the bullet together when driven with higher powder charges.
I plan on buying a few packages and finding out just how much better they are.

Beezer 12-14-2007 05:17 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Thanks for clarifying frontier. Now, given the option between $3 more for something that's better suited from my 100gr loads OR buying another box of Pyrodex pellets to get the proper 80gr load combination...I may just switch to the platinums.

gleason.chapman 12-14-2007 05:50 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 

ORIGINAL: frontier gander

There has been Way to many amatures lately who post about using powerbelts with 150 grain magnum charges and then poor results when shooting a deer from 30 yards or less. Or even not so great accuracy.
I could be the only person on this forum who has used these bullets regurally for almost 6 years and who has learned the correct way of shooting these bullets to perform the best on not only paper, But most importantly on game. Now some rifles such as my Winchester, CVA hawken, cva bobcat and Cabelas hawken, Love these bullets and shoot them accuratley. Powerbelts are all we use in our hunting group. That group being Myself, father and my brother.
My brother and father prefer the 295 grain aerotip powerbelts over 90 grains Pyrodex RS and both have had excellent pass through results that dropped the deer. I shoot a .45 powerbelt in 225 grain and after testing, 80 grains pyrodex or triple 7 offer the best expansion and devistating performance on the deer i shot.

The ONLY way you can use 150 grain magnum charges with the powerbelt is if the deer you are shooting is 140+ yards away. Anything under and you'll more than likely not get good performance.

A couple stories from when i used to use Mag charges with powerbelts. Anyone who has used mag charges and a 245 or 295 powerbelt and shot the deer through the lungs should reconize the results.

146 Yard shot with 150 grains pyrodex rs, 295 grain powerbelt aerotip. Bullet went right behind the shoulder, Exited and the deer ran maybe 10-15 yards before dropping well within easy sight. After gutting, the entrance wound and exit were the size of the bullets diameter. Body cavity filled up with blood but did not leave a trail due to no bullet expansion. Lungs were destroyed.

The next year,
148 yard shot, 120 grains pyrodex RS, 245 grain hollow point powerbelt. Bullet weight through the front of the neck, exited in front of the shoulder. Deer dropped. Exit hole again, size of the bullets diameter. No blood, But then again, the deer dropped in its track from the neck shot.

Next year, Brothers cva hawken, 90 grains pyrodex rs, 295 powerbelt. 90 yard shot, Bullet hit the deer in the spine, She dropped but the bullet just nicked the spine and she stood back up. Another shot from his rifle hit the deer through the lungs and exited and the deer dropped in its tracks with an exit hole you could stick 2 fingers into and lots of blood on the ground.

Dads cabelas Hawken, 295 grain powerbelt, 90 grains RS, Frontal shot through the chest that broke the collar bone and shoulder and exited behind the deers last rib. Deer went apox. 30 yards. Fair blood trail. The exit wound was high so it really didnt offer much blood due to the angle it exited.

Now this is where the Powerbelt VS low powder charge starts to really get good and is one of my best hunts ever.
This years hunt, Deer Creek .45 sidelock, 225 grain powerbelt aerotip Over 80 grains FFFg Triple 7 " loose". Shot distance, 80 yards. Bullet hit the deer squarely in the shoulder, I saw the deer hunch forward and she staggered off and once i got to where i shot her, i followed a short 5 yard, massive blood trail to where she dropped and then rolled/slide 20-30 feet, dead. The shot took out her heart, sucked one lung, high into her chest cavity and just shredded it into mush. Exit wound hit her in the actual Bone and busted it. Bullet was recovered just under the hide in a perfect mushroom and no loss of bullet weight.

Later on that evening my dad is carrying my deer creek .45, same load as above. Shoots a decent sized doe, 50 yard broadside shot, Bullet enters perfectly behind the shoulder and exits out of opposite shoulder and breaks bone/exits cleanly. After searching for a couple minutes to find where she was standing, " deer was in thick forage" I found where she stood when my dad shot her and there was a 5-6" dia Aspen tree with one side covered and dripping with bright red blood. Looking on the ground, we found a big splatter here, couple feet later, more blood, thicker and getting heavier. Got into some really thick folage and the hill slanted steep and after that we found where she died and slid down the bank and into some fallen timber. It was only a 15 yard tracking job, but the heavy timber and folage made it tricky and you had to take your time so you wouldnt miss any sign.
Any of you that have hunted in thick aspen/pine groves know the sticker bushes, thick grasses and plants quite well and know its quite a trick to track in that stuff :D
Exit wound took out the entire front shoulder. Coyotes ate good that night.
The entrance shot is confusing. When i lifted the deer up, the bullet passing through the body cavity SUCKED the stomach into the chest cavity and pushed a 4-5" dia. baloon sized part of the stomach out of the entrance wound. How, i have no clue to this day.

Powerbelts perform BEST with a charge of 80 grains of powder. Anything over that and they will start to lack. Now keep in mind that i recommend 80 grain charges maximum when using a lighter weight 225-245-295-300 grain powerbelt. A 338+ grain powerbelt i would use a maximum of 90 grain powder charge. These charges are what i find to perform best on big game.

Im no expert, Im just a guy who has spend $$$ on these bullets, shot game and found the perfect load which offers the best performance for the powerbelt bullet. Todays modern inline and their 150 grain mag charges is over kill, and is not needed. Its surprising to see how many people use 150 grain charges and find out that they usually only shoot their deer at 50 to 75 yards. When using the powerbelt, a 150 grain charge and a target being only 20 feet to 75 yards out there, You are asking for trouble.

Some may read this and say, He only used 80 grains triple7? No way! Thats not enough. Sorry gents but you do not need 150 mag charges to kill game. My rifle shooting a 225 grain powerbelt is only 4" low @ 150 yards and still carrys over 900 some odd Ftlbs of energy at that distance.

If using a lighter weight powerbelt, Do yourself a huge favor, drop your charges down to 80 grains. I dont care if its T7, pyrodex, APP. Whichever powder you are using, Keep it at 80 grains! You will love the results when you pull that trigger.

Again, I USE these bullets, Ive learned what powder charge it takes to get excellent performance.
This is just my advice for the powerbelt amature who has no clue on how to correctly use these bullets.

Lets keep this thread clean. You all know who you are ;) This is for those who love the easy loading, accurate powerbelt but who lack the experience on how to use them properly.

Thanks for taking the time to read all my lies and tall tales. Good luck to those who take my advice and please report back.



This is my doe i shot at 80 grains with a 225 grain powerbelt, 80 grains T7.
Entrance shot,
Take note to blood all over the ground above the deers rear end and above its head

Bullet exited here but is still under the hide. Which was fine with me! The shoulder bone to the left of my finger was broken by the bullet.



Recoverd 225 grain powerbelt. No weight loss.

Part of the short 5 yard blood trail i followed.

Entrance shot.
I was able to fit 3 fingers into this hole

Exit wound,
Able to fit 2 fingers into this one, Along with the broken shoulder bone.

A good sized 120-130 lb mule deer doe and the little .45 that could.


Also for those who read the story on my dad taking the doe with my .45, Here is what part of that aspen grove looked like, Only this is quite a bit thinner.

FG, It would be great if you could get CVA to update this web page:

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/docs/PBB26inchballistics.pdf

since they only reference 100, 130 and 150g loads or to explain as you do here that 150g loads are for shots over 140 yards. I agree with you 100%, 80g max on PB for shots under 100.
Chap Gleason

frontier gander 12-14-2007 05:59 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Now that all these magnum inlines now have a 150g rating, everyone is caught up in it. Its like a CVA write up i read, If you're not selling inlines, You wont last.

Powerbelt actually only recommends 60 to 90 grain powder charges. I see that guys are actually shooting the 195 grain powerbelts over 3 pellets. How they do it, i have no clue.

Im not the maker of the product so i do not know why they even allow 150g pellet charges. Im just the guy thats finding the right loads to help others out.

gleason.chapman 12-14-2007 06:04 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 

ORIGINAL: frontier gander


Powerbelt actually only recommends 60 to 90 grain powder charges.
Where does it say that? Chap

frontier gander 12-14-2007 06:07 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Dont you remember when i posted the email i got back from Powerbelts when i emailed them asking what kind of FPS i was getting with 100 grains loose FFFG goex?

jaybe 12-14-2007 08:10 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
This has been an interesting and informative thread. Over the past couple of years there have been many threads about PB's, so I always look to see what's new.
Just yesterday (while sitting on the ice perch fishing) I was talking to a guy who shoots ML a lot. So I asked him: "What kind of bullet do you shoot?"
"He says, "You know, those things with the little plastic skirt on the back." "Powerbelts?" "Yeah, that's it."
"Well", I says, "How much powder do you use?" "Three 50 grain pellets", he says. "Really! And how have they worked for you?", I says. "Oh, I've shot lots of deer with 'em." "What part of the deer do you aim for?", I asked. "The neck", he says, "I always shoot 'em right in the neck, and they drop right where they stood. Never tracked one more than 6 inches."
So - while that doesn't prove or disprove anything about entrance or exit wounds, it definitely shows that he has found an effective way to use PB's.
Thanks for the info FG; it's obvious that you too have found how to use them effectively. And that's whet everyone who shoots a muzzleloader needs to do. With time on the range and in the field, find the right combination of propellant, primer and projectile that works well under your hunting situation.



Beezer 12-14-2007 08:39 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 

ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman


ORIGINAL: frontier gander

There has been Way to many amatures lately who post about using powerbelts with 150 grain magnum charges and then poor results when shooting a deer from 30 yards or less. Or even not so great accuracy.
I could be the only person on this forum who has used these bullets regurally for almost 6 years and who has learned the correct way of shooting these bullets to perform the best on not only paper, But most importantly on game. Now some rifles such as my Winchester, CVA hawken, cva bobcat and Cabelas hawken, Love these bullets and shoot them accuratley. Powerbelts are all we use in our hunting group. That group being Myself, father and my brother.
My brother and father prefer the 295 grain aerotip powerbelts over 90 grains Pyrodex RS and both have had excellent pass through results that dropped the deer. I shoot a .45 powerbelt in 225 grain and after testing, 80 grains pyrodex or triple 7 offer the best expansion and devistating performance on the deer i shot.

The ONLY way you can use 150 grain magnum charges with the powerbelt is if the deer you are shooting is 140+ yards away. Anything under and you'll more than likely not get good performance.

A couple stories from when i used to use Mag charges with powerbelts. Anyone who has used mag charges and a 245 or 295 powerbelt and shot the deer through the lungs should reconize the results.

146 Yard shot with 150 grains pyrodex rs, 295 grain powerbelt aerotip. Bullet went right behind the shoulder, Exited and the deer ran maybe 10-15 yards before dropping well within easy sight. After gutting, the entrance wound and exit were the size of the bullets diameter. Body cavity filled up with blood but did not leave a trail due to no bullet expansion. Lungs were destroyed.

The next year,
148 yard shot, 120 grains pyrodex RS, 245 grain hollow point powerbelt. Bullet weight through the front of the neck, exited in front of the shoulder. Deer dropped. Exit hole again, size of the bullets diameter. No blood, But then again, the deer dropped in its track from the neck shot.

Next year, Brothers cva hawken, 90 grains pyrodex rs, 295 powerbelt. 90 yard shot, Bullet hit the deer in the spine, She dropped but the bullet just nicked the spine and she stood back up. Another shot from his rifle hit the deer through the lungs and exited and the deer dropped in its tracks with an exit hole you could stick 2 fingers into and lots of blood on the ground.

Dads cabelas Hawken, 295 grain powerbelt, 90 grains RS, Frontal shot through the chest that broke the collar bone and shoulder and exited behind the deers last rib. Deer went apox. 30 yards. Fair blood trail. The exit wound was high so it really didnt offer much blood due to the angle it exited.

Now this is where the Powerbelt VS low powder charge starts to really get good and is one of my best hunts ever.
This years hunt, Deer Creek .45 sidelock, 225 grain powerbelt aerotip Over 80 grains FFFg Triple 7 " loose". Shot distance, 80 yards. Bullet hit the deer squarely in the shoulder, I saw the deer hunch forward and she staggered off and once i got to where i shot her, i followed a short 5 yard, massive blood trail to where she dropped and then rolled/slide 20-30 feet, dead. The shot took out her heart, sucked one lung, high into her chest cavity and just shredded it into mush. Exit wound hit her in the actual Bone and busted it. Bullet was recovered just under the hide in a perfect mushroom and no loss of bullet weight.

Later on that evening my dad is carrying my deer creek .45, same load as above. Shoots a decent sized doe, 50 yard broadside shot, Bullet enters perfectly behind the shoulder and exits out of opposite shoulder and breaks bone/exits cleanly. After searching for a couple minutes to find where she was standing, " deer was in thick forage" I found where she stood when my dad shot her and there was a 5-6" dia Aspen tree with one side covered and dripping with bright red blood. Looking on the ground, we found a big splatter here, couple feet later, more blood, thicker and getting heavier. Got into some really thick folage and the hill slanted steep and after that we found where she died and slid down the bank and into some fallen timber. It was only a 15 yard tracking job, but the heavy timber and folage made it tricky and you had to take your time so you wouldnt miss any sign.
Any of you that have hunted in thick aspen/pine groves know the sticker bushes, thick grasses and plants quite well and know its quite a trick to track in that stuff :D
Exit wound took out the entire front shoulder. Coyotes ate good that night.
The entrance shot is confusing. When i lifted the deer up, the bullet passing through the body cavity SUCKED the stomach into the chest cavity and pushed a 4-5" dia. baloon sized part of the stomach out of the entrance wound. How, i have no clue to this day.

Powerbelts perform BEST with a charge of 80 grains of powder. Anything over that and they will start to lack. Now keep in mind that i recommend 80 grain charges maximum when using a lighter weight 225-245-295-300 grain powerbelt. A 338+ grain powerbelt i would use a maximum of 90 grain powder charge. These charges are what i find to perform best on big game.

Im no expert, Im just a guy who has spend $$$ on these bullets, shot game and found the perfect load which offers the best performance for the powerbelt bullet. Todays modern inline and their 150 grain mag charges is over kill, and is not needed. Its surprising to see how many people use 150 grain charges and find out that they usually only shoot their deer at 50 to 75 yards. When using the powerbelt, a 150 grain charge and a target being only 20 feet to 75 yards out there, You are asking for trouble.

Some may read this and say, He only used 80 grains triple7? No way! Thats not enough. Sorry gents but you do not need 150 mag charges to kill game. My rifle shooting a 225 grain powerbelt is only 4" low @ 150 yards and still carrys over 900 some odd Ftlbs of energy at that distance.

If using a lighter weight powerbelt, Do yourself a huge favor, drop your charges down to 80 grains. I dont care if its T7, pyrodex, APP. Whichever powder you are using, Keep it at 80 grains! You will love the results when you pull that trigger.

Again, I USE these bullets, Ive learned what powder charge it takes to get excellent performance.
This is just my advice for the powerbelt amature who has no clue on how to correctly use these bullets.

Lets keep this thread clean. You all know who you are ;) This is for those who love the easy loading, accurate powerbelt but who lack the experience on how to use them properly.

Thanks for taking the time to read all my lies and tall tales. Good luck to those who take my advice and please report back.



This is my doe i shot at 80 grains with a 225 grain powerbelt, 80 grains T7.
Entrance shot,
Take note to blood all over the ground above the deers rear end and above its head

Bullet exited here but is still under the hide. Which was fine with me! The shoulder bone to the left of my finger was broken by the bullet.



Recoverd 225 grain powerbelt. No weight loss.

Part of the short 5 yard blood trail i followed.

Entrance shot.
I was able to fit 3 fingers into this hole

Exit wound,
Able to fit 2 fingers into this one, Along with the broken shoulder bone.

A good sized 120-130 lb mule deer doe and the little .45 that could.


Also for those who read the story on my dad taking the doe with my .45, Here is what part of that aspen grove looked like, Only this is quite a bit thinner.

FG, It would be great if you could get CVA to update this web page:

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/docs/PBB26inchballistics.pdf

since they only reference 100, 130 and 150g loads or to explain as you do here that 150g loads are for shots over 140 yards. I agree with you 100%, 80g max on PB for shots under 100.
Chap Gleason
Would one of you longtime shooters have any idea how these numbers stack up with a shorter barrel length? CVAs numbers are based on a 26 inch barrel while the new CVA Wolf has a 24" barrel. What are the effects on these numbers overall, does the shorter barrel drop the speed and kinetic energy ratings or would it raise them? Or, would it have virtually no effect at all?

jaybe 12-14-2007 08:48 PM

RE: How to use a Powerbelt Bullet Correctly
 
Manufacturers almost always publish velocity and energyfigures with barrel lengths that maximize results. Most CF stats are with 26" test barrels that are longer than most sporting rifles. ML's are no different.
On the whole, you can expect your velocities to be lower per inch of barrel less than published. I won't guess at what it might be (OK - I'll take a guess - maybe 50-75 fps) - probaly someone with a chronograph will give you a more specific idea.


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