LKNCHOPPERS

Thanks for the info.

Pglasgow

FG,

There used to circulate tales (perhaps they still circulate) that goats were put in armored personal carriers when testing the 30mm rounds from the A-10's Gatlin gun. The uranium tipped 30mm bullets pierced the carriers with small holes and exited with holes large enough, it was rumored, to SUCK the goats right out! I never witnessed it so I can not account for the tales reliability. There were also speculations at the time, (before any actual combat), that A10's wouldn't last longer than 5 minutes in combat but would detroy dozens of tanks in that span of time. It turns out that A10's weren't so easy to take down in combat, though the effectiveness of the A10 as anti-tank weapon was not underestimated.

Back to the concept of SUCKING. A bullet always has a vacuum behind it and pressured area in front of it. So I'm not surprised about a portion of the stomach being sucked out of the cavity. Anyone who has hunted rabbits and squirrels has found guts hanging out too when body shots were taken. Same principle.

As for PB's effectiveness in killing game, it depends solely on impact speed and shot placement. I can now also vouch that PB's are very effective projectiles when used like a sportsman should use them. The 405 did the job for me with just 70 grains of 3f Goex. With in 100 yards, I'd put it up against 100 grains of 777 and 250 shockwave. Now I would not maverick shots. I wouldn't shoot anus's, spines, or heads. But give me shot for a pass through the vital area, everything except where the bullet entry will strike with glancing impact a scapula (frontally quartered scapula shot are no-nos with any bullet and any rifle, bullets can ricochet on things as soft as water, so they can and in fact do on bone also) and I guarantee you that my deer will be just as dead as his and just as fast also.

A large all lead hollowpoint impacting at optimum velocity (less than 1300 fps) is more efficient at getting its energy and momentum into the vital cavity than a lighter faster moving bullet. A high velocity projectile MUST BE jacketed, or it can not get into a large game animal with sufficient integrity to exit. It will just mush into an inverted cup and fragment. So a jacket will control expansion and allow the bullet to enter the vitals. Even so, it will do this less efficiently than a slower, heavier bullet with the same impact energy.

There are two reasons for this. First higher speed at impact will result in a greater proportion of energy being dissipated at right angles to bullet flight. Second, the larger bullet has superior momentum and with retain a greater proportion of that momentum (and energy) allowing for a larger wound channel.

That said, given the limits of velocity one needs to impose on all lead projectiles, it is clear that to achieve higher impact energy one can only go with heavier projectiles. While with jacketed bullets, one just adds powder. Even so, there is diminishing returns and ultimately, opposite effects can be realized if the impact velocity exceeds the design of the jacketed bullet. Under enough velocity, they too will behave like powerbelts at 1400 fps. Too much velocity simply ruins any bullet's performance. The advantage of jacketed bullets is not terminal performance perse, RATHER, it is better terminal performance at the velocities required to achieve flatter trajectory.

All lead hollowpoints are not for everyone. They are for persons who want to use an relatively primitive technology. They would be persons who may enjoy the challenge of getting close to their quarry. Folks who should refrain from using them would be those who want to maverick shots like head shots, anus shots, and spine shots or to take shots over 120 yards. It would be far better to have a scoped rifle with a shockwave or gold-dot for that.

I think you are on the right track recommending the 80 grain limit for PB's.

Phil

falcon

When i decided to get back into muzzleloader hunting, i borrowed a friends Knight to hunt with. Was carrying the gun muzzle down and i saw the Powerbelt bullet come tumbling out on the ground. Solved my problem with that bullet by buying some saboted XTP bullets from China Outlets. Will never usea Powerbelt bulletagain.

oldrookie

Thanks for the post Phil. That was an interesting read. As far as the powerbelt falling out of the barrel, as in any slug, powerbelts are not going to work well for all barrels. My slug of choice is the 300g hornady xtp. I have read numerous shooters say for some reason the xtp is not for them.

It all gets back to knowing what works best with your own rifle and the conditions the rifle is going to be used. That too is what makes muzzleloading so much darn fun.

sjsfire

If my memory serves me, I believe Frontier Gander had the same issue with Sabertooths. I think if anyone wants to shoot the Powerbelts his experience and knowledge should be looked at carefully......the guy's done his homework on the Powerbelts. Good post

falcon

"I think if anyone wants to shoot the Powerbelts his experience and knowledge should be looked at carefully......the guy's done his homework on the Powerbelts."

Yes, he has and i appreciate his experience with that bullet.

lemoyne

I think we all ought to respect each others opinion, and person theres no need for any one to get upset.
frontier gander, I worked with them untill I could make them work right I even talked to the company about them and if you use them with them 70 to 90 gr they recommend they will do a good job, I decieded not to use them, I like heavier loads than they work well with because some times I need to shoot longer range and there are much better bullets for that. To me even the Sabortooth which is a similar bullet has many advantages including working with heavier loads right and price. I guess the thing that bothers me most is how easy they load, it is hard for me to believe that they stay where they belong on top the powder if you should happen to bump the gun wrong; but to be honest I have not heard of many problem with that and a lot of people have been using them for a long time.
I think that some people forget that PB were popular a long time a go and were designed when the top load was about 100gr of RS, I am not sure but I think it was before inlines. Lee

Tahquamenon

I would agree that a PowerBelt should not be pushed too fast. Although I have not shot game with a PB, I have seen the results of game shot with them and I would come to the conclusion that the PB's were pushed too fast (Ultra fragmented) in those instances.

When attempt to work up a load with an ML, the load that I eventually end up hunting with is the primer, powder, projectile combination that is the absolute most accurate. Which is not always 80gr of powder. In fact I only have a couple of 50cal sidelocks that shoot the best with an 80gr loose charge of 3FG Swiss and that is with a PRB and a wad.

The folks I know that threw in the towel with PB's gave me their left over bullets. I have not tried PB's in everything ML I own (that would take a long time), but I have not been able to get PB's to print as well in my or other folks ML's as other projectiles, which is the main reason why I don't hunt with them. I do however sometimes carry a PB load for a quicker follow-up shot, which I have yet to need.

Folks shooting Powerbelts and 50gr T7 Pellets in two or three pellet combinations are from the beginning (according to your findings) are pushing them too fast when considering say a 100yard or less hunting shot area. I would agree. Should state that I am not a pellet fan for a variety of reasons but I understand why some folks like/use pellets.

I am interested with the PB platinum's as the claim is that they are harder than the copper jacketed and will likely give them a try on first the accuracy department and then if the accuracy is acceptable (to me), then try them in a hunting situation.

Thanks much FG, for the powerbelt write-up. I would say folks should forget shooing PB with preformed pellets and only with loose powder. Even though you can get a 30gr equivlelant pellet + a 50gr to make 80gr load, your best ability to workup a load is with loose powder and a measure with at least 5gr increments.

Tahquamenon

cayugad

Powerbelts are very accurate in some of my rifles, and not so good to down right terrible in others. I have only shot perhaps a hundred of them in my testing, maybe more I never really kept count. I have yet to shoot an animal with them. I have read the horror stories about them and normally from what I have read, powerbelts shot with large powder charges, strikinganimalsat close range tend to fragment in some cases. This I can understand.

Frontier Gander posted his personal experiences and his testing results in an excellent manner I might add. I have since, listening to his reports in the past determined that if I were to hunt with a powerbelt, I would not exceed 90 grains of 2f powder.

YET - since shooting some of the large conicals like Bull Shop or my home casted,in different rifles, I have also came to the conclusion that there is no need for the $1.00+ or more perbullet powerbelts. I have a couple rifles that are true conical shooters. Those are my go to rifles. The other rifles can shoot sabots or roundball. Still, if the opportunity did present itself to shoot powerbelts, this information presented here, would be of great value. Thanks for the post.

Branson

frontier, thanks for the write-up on PBs. They shoot well out of my gun, and are a little less expensive than some of the saboted bullets (the ones i've tried wont fit anyways). I really wouldn't mind hearing your opinion on shooting PBs through shoulders though. From the horror stories, I'm skeptical on how well they'd perform shooting through shoulders (love the picture of that muley doe)and the odds of getting a complete pass-through. I need a blood trail, as I'll admit I'm a poor tracker. Once again, I really appreciate the writeup and you sharing your experiences with these projectiles.