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New Sub Powder...
Triple Seven first posted this on another site so i do want to give him credit...
Western Powders, of Miles City, MT is about to take modern in-line muzzleloader performance to yet another new level. At the 2008 SHOT Show in Las Vegas this coming February, the company will unveil an all new muzzleloader propellant that has been specifically developed to produce optimum velocities and energy levels with today's popular No. 209 primer ignition in-line rifle models. And it does it with lower peak pressure levels than produced by today's widely used 150-grain black powder substitute pellet charges. The company's new Blackhorn 209 is definitely not just another black powder substitute. First of all, this propellant is a short-cut, extruded powder. And there is a small hole running through the center of each granule. This is not a nitro-cellulose based powder, but then again its not just another concoction of the same old ingredients of the very similar materisl found in other non-smokeless black powder subsititutes. As the powder comes to market, those who want to know will learn more about its chemical make up. Right now, let's just establish that it is non-corrosive...and different. Like all other modern muzzleloader powders, Blackhorn 209 is bulkier than real black powder. In fact, a 100-grain volume measured charge of this powder actually weighs in at just under 70 grains. However, due to the exceptional uniformity of the granules, this is easily the best measuring muzzleloader propellant that has ever been available. And largely due to the unofrmity of the charges, accuracy is exceptional. As with anything that's new, shooters will have to learn a few things necessary for getting optimum performance with Blackhorn 209. ne of the most important with this powder is to accept that IT IS A NO. 209 PRIMER ignition ONLY powder. Here, at last, is a muzzleloader powder that truly permits the muzzleloading hunter to spend an entire day in the field, or week in hunting camp, without having to wipe the bore, whether the rifle was shot once or several dozen times. And on the performance side, the powder shoots with very consistent accuracy and impressive velocities. According to Western Powders, Blackhorn 209 produces those bullet speeds with a lower peak pressure than equivalent loads of Triple Seven. - Toby Bridges, NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/ Here is the complete article... http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/SpecialReport2.html |
RE: New Sub Powder...
Sounds interesting but I think I will stay with the Goex.:D
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RE: New Sub Powder...
sabotloader, This sounds even better than the other one I heard about, will it be possable to get a can for testing any time soon? Lee
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RE: New Sub Powder...
LEE
Miles City is across the Idaho line and in the eastern part of Montana, but I am really tempted to e-mail themand see if they would allow a common person to try some - but I doubt that I would qualify as a powder tester for them.... And yes - I think it might be a better alternative also - if it does what they say.... Interesting dicovery.... search for Western Powders -> they just bought out Accurate powder company - so now it even sounds more promising... |
RE: New Sub Powder...
Yep sounds interesting but like sharp shooter says, i'll stick with a proven powder. This new powder stuff that keeps coming out often leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Non corrosive dont mean anything. Rather than bragging about 5 minute clean up jobs, take your time and actually clean the rifle the right way and you wont have to worry about corrosion!
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RE: New Sub Powder...
sabotloader,The info I have seen so far matches up with Black Mag. I wonder if it is possable that they bought the pattent; I heard production on Black Mag has stopped. Lee
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RE: New Sub Powder...
LEE
It does sound like BM3 - but MLKieth who has pretty good contact with Magkor says they have joined MDM... just have to wait & see I guess - wish iwas closer to Miles City... |
RE: New Sub Powder...
I'll stick with american pioneer powder co jim shockey's select FFF. The claims about not having to clean as far fouling buildup,we've already got now for sure with this and it's proven-accuracy,non fouling,consistant,excellent velocity,and easily measured per volume. We tested and comparedthis powder side by side with black powder,pyrodex,and 777,and select easily came out on top-all rifles/setups were exactly the same.
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RE: New Sub Powder...
OH BOY-This is great news.One more thing to play with. Should be good for a lot of range time.Look at it as stimulating the economy.Buy American products.
Charlie |
RE: New Sub Powder...
It sounds like it might be a good powder but I like real black powder (im a traditional guy). I still would like to hear how it goes though. I think a lot of inline shooters will like it. I wonder how much you would have to reduce your charge?
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RE: New Sub Powder...
Here, at last, is a muzzleloader powder that truly permits the muzzleloading hunter to spend an entire day in the field, or week in hunting camp, without having to wipe the bore, whether the rifle was shot once or several dozen times. And on the performance side, the powder shoots with very consistent accuracy and impressive velocities. What really surprises me is that every manufacturer is pursuing the "holy grail" of BP substitute powders (i.e. no fouling, non-corrosive and non-hygroscopic, greater performance, etc...) and everyone gets all excited about a new powder thats ALMOST, but not quite smokeless. But many of the people here who will rush to jump on this new bandwagon the minute it hits shelves are the ones who poo-poo true smokeless ML's. Hypocracy...anyone?:([:@] Mike |
RE: New Sub Powder...
driftrider
Mostly because smokeless is not legal in a lot of states - including all three of the Pacific Northwest states.... |
RE: New Sub Powder...
Mostly because smokeless is not legal in a lot of states - including all three of the Pacific Northwest states.... ORIGINAL: sabotloader driftrider Mostly because smokeless is not legal in a lot of states - including all three of the Pacific Northwest states.... Mike |
RE: New Sub Powder...
driftrider
guess that goes back to something in the Constitution called "states rights" - your state does not make rules for the neighboring state... If I wanted to hunt with a single shot smokeless ML guess I could always use 1 bullet and a 30-30 or a 308 or better yet a Ruger #1 I am OK with the no smokeless rule - but yet i do want the option of inline/sabots/optics - make no sense does it... |
RE: New Sub Powder...
Hey Mike, when you call them - ask if they would also like a hillbilly with a brand spankin' new KP1 to be a tester. :D :D
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RE: New Sub Powder...
I think it would be a winner if it was comparable to smokeless powder in that you do not have to cleanyour MLright away. Sometimes after a long day hunting and butchering a deer, you don't feel like cleaning your ML right away. I would give it a whirl.
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RE: New Sub Powder...
Oh now boys theres something to be said about all that smoke, Kinda gets me excited watchin that ol buck trying to get up after the smoke clears.
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RE: New Sub Powder...
ORIGINAL: sabotloader LEE It does sound like BM3 - but MLKieth who has pretty good contact with Magkor says they have joined MDM... just have to wait & see I guess - wish iwas closer to Miles City... |
RE: New Sub Powder...
I sent out some inquires to some friends, it appears one of them was involved in developing it:
Quote: Lee,[/align] The powder was developed by General Dynamics, the largest munitions manufacturer in the world. And when the engineers who put it together first camae to me 3 years ago to discuss...they said they could make a new muzzleolaoder powdeer do whatever we decided it had to do. And one of the things immediately brought up was better control of pressures...which would mean a progressive burning powder.[/align] Blackhorn 209, according to those engineers, produces right at 5% higher velocities than FFFg Triple Seven, with about 10% lower pressures.[/align] For reporting on the powder, for the .50 caliber, I've stopped at 110 grains...until more pressure data is availabile. However, in my own shooting, I've gone up to 120 grains to get the 250-grain Barnes TMZ out of my Knight at 2,168 f.p.s. - and still with good (sub 1 1/2 inch) accuracy.[/align][/align]Sabotloader might know who I was talking to, I dont feel free to mention his name with out asking. I am not about to spoil the source that might see about getting me a can to test. Lee[/align] |
RE: New Sub Powder...
This is getting more interesting as information leaks out. I was told that General Dynamics was on contract with Magkor to make Black Mag'3 about the time the clumping issue came up. A source that I believe is reliable claims that GD cut some corners in the production causing some problems with the powder resulting in a cut off of the agreement between them and Magkor. Now we see that it might look like GD may have had an iron in the fire to come out with a competitive powder before they went into the agreement with Magkor. Sure wish I knew all the real information. I suppose it all the information was correct and could be proven it would spawn lawsuits and we would never see either of the powders on the market. I am not saying that this is true I am only saying that it might look that way to some.
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RE: New Sub Powder...
MLKeith, I wish congress would put somecontrols on lawsuits especally the ones that limit our markets and some of these unbelieveable silly ones.
I believe we are looking at some deliberate differances between this and any other sub, this is a designerpowder to eliminate certain drawbacks and still be classified as a black powder sub. it supposedly has a different base than any other sub uses but they wont say what. If what I read is all true it will produce velocities like the Savage gets with smokeless and do it with pressures a Mag muzzleloader normally uses. I was told it will push a 250gr bullet close to 2200FPS with pressures close to or less than my normal load of 777 and that you should worry about cleaninga gun using it after a week or two hunting trip also that it will not work well with anything less than a 209. We will eventually see. Lee |
RE: New Sub Powder...
Mike, Thanks for pointing this out. Interesting. Price will be the factor, if they sell it for $15/lb they will get a market.if it is about the same as 777 or JSG, then they will not do well.
Chap Gleason |
RE: New Sub Powder...
As Chap said, at $15 it will do well as long as it lives up to its billing. Even at 777 prices I would at least try it and if it performs I would use it. If it is priced like BlackMag 3 I might try it but may not use it due to the price unless it really performs that much better. There are at least 3 reasons I don't use BM3, cost, lack of performance in my testing so far, and fouling (its fouling is as bad as 777 with a little less crud ring), not even mentioning the availability issues. APP for me suffers from similar problems, its cleaner for sure but the performance is less than what I see from any other powders, it is the slowest velocity powder I have tried so far and was not as accurate as 777 or Pyrodex for me. Of course others have had luck withthese and I hopethey continue to work for them.
The fact of the matter is that pricing will be as big a factor in its acceptance as any other and will probably determine whether it makes it or not. Thats my 2 cents worth. |
RE: New Sub Powder...
David: I think you are correct. I really have had very good results with Black Mag'3 but have constantly been advising them that availability is number one and price is number two. I know getting a new powder on the market for a single product company is a real difficult thing to do but they have to understand that in the beginning. I hope that if this new powder is actually supported by a powder company like Accurate then they may have better distribution capability. It sounds like it is being processed similar to smokeless as the "extruded with a hole in the grain" description sounds like other smokeless powder I have had. As an older single body hunter I have to drop elk fast or they get to where I cannot retrieve them so I really like the possiblity of a fast second shot. Black Mag has allowed my Omega to do that. I have had elk dead on their feet and they still go almost a half mile before stopping. If they get an adrenalin rush they can go forever. (added information) According to a tech at Western the powder is not going to be available until after the Shot Show in February. It is not a rehash of the ascorbic acid based powders. It does require a hot 209 to ignite so the White guys probably won't be interested but Whites will shoot anything you can stuff down the barrel so it doesn't matter. I could not get a price indication. If it is being produced similar to regular smokeless and on the same equipment it is possible that they may keep the price reasonable. As far as distribution they should be in better shape than Magkor as they already have a distribution network for Western/Accurate powders. I am really interested in this one.
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RE: New Sub Powder...
Hi guys,
I'm new to this forum but it is very interesting to read what everyone else is shooting and how they like it. I read Toby's report on Blackhorn 209 and he has nothing but good things to say about it except for the price. Where 777 or pioneer powder is avg. 25.00 a pound this Blackhorn 209 will be 30.00 for 10 oz. A ittle pricey for just practice, but sounds like really good for hunting.[&:] |
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