RE: White Ultramag questions
 

No one is going to argue with Sabotloader that sabots and pistol bullets are able to produceeffectivecleankills. My point is, conicals can do the same thing. You need to know what you are able to do with any projectile you are going to use. If you can place that conical or pistol bullet, both of them are going to produce venison on the table.

On the White Rifle Forum when the hunting stories start to come in, or the hog hunting stories, we are told of bang.. flops or DRT. Or of huge wound channels. 99% of them are shooting conicals and having no problem taking dangerous or large game.

Cascadedad also made some points I was going to bring up about professional hunters. If they had a chance they would use a center fire. Something that they did not have to depend on the one shot theory. Now granted you're correct in watching these hunting shows, that Shockey, and others use Nosler or Shockwaves or some other sabot combination. Look at the make of rifle they use normally. They are not conical shooting rifles like the White was designed to be. They are sponsored spokespeople. If these same sponsored hunters were using White rifles and endorsing them 10 years ago, do you think they would be singing the praise of the sabot. Probably not. They would be bragging about the effective killing power of the White with a coincal. But today, that is not to say that they could not hunt some of those same animals with a conical is all I was trying to say.

This poster was asking about the White and what kind of projectiles it could shoot. Sabotloader was more then right to suggest sabots as he has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a White will shoot sabots. But the White will also shoot conicals and do it very well. Doc White and countless other White Rifle shooters over the years have shown that to be true. No one was trying to argue with you that a conical was better. Only that in 99% of the cases I feel it could do the same thing as the sabot.. if you know your rifle.

And my general stand on most topics is, you hunt and endorse what you belive in, it is what I expect of you. And I will do the same.

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

Dern guy has inhaled so much plastic vapor it has tainted his mind. ;) White Rifles were MADE to shoot conicals and you can not FULLY appreciate the experience unless you at least try shooting some concials - that was why I suggested silverstreak order some BullShops.

Of course flatter trajectories offer advantage but that advantage isn't always realized in the field. The one shot I have taken at a deer at 200 yards was with a .451 White, a featherweight ~425 grain conical, and was takenduring ideal weather conditions. What I observed at the shot was a deer immediately dropping like a rock.I had left my stopwatch in the truck.:D

Here is a group I fired with some Bowers Whitworths quite a while back. This was fired on a day when the wind was relatively calm: I must admit those bullet holes were ~32" below my point of aim, but look at how consistently they arrived. And they arrived there with plenty of energy, the tree behind the backboard DID hold together though.

That same day I did some shooting using sabot loads... I believe thosewere 240 grain XTPs (don't hold me to that as it may have been an even lighter bullet).I do recallthey hithigher on the target at 100 yardsand fell into adecent group at that range. At 220 yards, I couldn't find a single impact on the~4'x6' backboard. I still wonder where those flat shooting sabot rounds went.(not really - they had to go into the side of the hill behind the backboard).

I guess the point is that ballistics charts do NOT tell the whole story and can lead one to some false notions. Ask Dave about comparative power of the bigconicals vs most anything else he has shot.

Did you ever get better steel plate, Dave? :D

And there is more to the story aside from SUPERIOR performance at MUZZLELOADER ranges. :) At a cost of around a quarter each for those big conicals, they do seem a terrific bargain compared to even your least expensive sabot loads - and the Nosler you mention would buy how many ?? 6 of those conicals?

But to each his own. I've hunted for 50 years and have used muzzleloaders for around 35 years, that makes me no expert and certainly doesn't entitle me to give lectures on your mistaken notions ;) but it at least allows me to make my own choices based upon my own experiences.

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

SL, On Docs site, he makes a case for the big conical. I know you have corresponded with Doc some over the past year or so. Did you ever challenge him on his charts and his beliefs on the conical? I believe he has taken some big/dangerous game with a MLer.

Actually, I'm not sure if that info is still on Doc's site, but I am hoping you saw it in the past.

Really, I am not trying to be a smarty here. Just wondering if you had such a conversation, where did it go? That would be interesting.

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

One thing that I think all the participants in this thread can fully agree upon... Dem Ultra Mags iz sum shootin sunnygunz!! :D

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

Dat's rite!!!!!

Found it.

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/serv01.htm

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

UC

OK - you win that one...

This one I would like to discuss....

Just because it gives a big bang and rocks the crap out of a steel plate does not in that make it a good hunting bullet... i would agree if I really wanted to rock a steel plate shooting a huge lead conicalwould be the way to go... but if i wanted to shoot something on the other side of that steel plate then a conical is not going to get the job done... OK I know both shoulders of an elk are not a steel plate - but combine the shoulders with the hide on both sides - I will take a different bullet than soft lead bullet and increase my odds.

My experiance has been about the same with the lighter weight bullets @ 200 yards - guess that is why I will not shoot the 10mm 200 grain XTP for hunting here.... but the 260 and 300 grain bullets do quite well even from a lesser Remington 700ML

My whole argument is based on Time In Flight with nearly equal energy... I will always take short time in flight + equal energy with much better trajectory... What do you think is making all this magnum about in the first place and why is it so popular - because it is effective (in centerfires) although Jack O'Connor would tell you the 270 is the best gun in the world shooting a itty bitty 130 grain bullet.

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

Well the quarter inch steel did not stand a chance as a bullet trap. The conicals first started making stretch dimples that were over 1/2 inch in length. Finally the conicals weakened the steel and they blew right through.

The 1/2 steel plate we tried next,I managed to break a few of those pieces. My friend who works in metal and was shocked I was able to, swears it was because of constant impact of the conicals in a relatively close area where temperatures might make the metal brittle.

Now the 3/4 steel plate I currently use is holding up perfect other then all the dimples those slow moving conicals have been making in that steel. Although I had to weld the individual plates with ahinge pipe on the top that a smallerpipe slides through. This pipelets them swing back and fourth so the power of the conicals can dissipate without the steel taking the blunt force. Not that they broke the thick steel but I got tired of setting the heavy plates back in place all the time. They are really heavy.

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

OK, go ahead. :D

I do own a .270 Winchester by the way. Haven't shot it in years, but it's sitting over there along with an equally idle 6mm Remington... in case I ever have a real need for speed. :D

I have to edit this to say the above was intended for Mike.

Thanks for the update on those plates, Dave. Glad the 3/4" is holding up.:)

RC - down below - go get in your tree. Sabots shouldn't be a problem with smokeless as smokeless should be inside a cartridge case. :D :D

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

Well Geez,how dead is dead, I have shot several elkand deer with conicals,
Yes a U-M, also shot a bunch of deerwith a 300 grain Barnes original over smokeless at 2300 feet per second, Moose, caribou,bear,lots of bull elk all shot with a 300 weatb. or 7mm, rem.mag, so many deer with different centerfires I cannot count (now I am an ol timer). This is what I have found if you shoot an animal (any animal)thru both lungs they will go 50 to 150 yards regardless
of what you hit them with (within reason of course). I have shot sabots in my U-M at targets they shoot good but I have a very bad shoulder an I cannotload more than 2 or 3 of them. Don't bother me when I shoot tho.
Sabots will have a little flatter trajectory but with a White I will use a conical.It feels so good. With smokeless powder than there is no arguement from me, the sabot is a lot better with a good bullet.
Redclub
Dang this typing cost me 15 minutes in my treestand.

RE: White Ultramag questions
 

cascadedad

we did and have actually more than one... He never swayed me from my thoughts because I know my numbers and have seen the results... He could never argue velocity and trajectory -which was not a big deal to him but is to me and I will say most other conventional hunters...

He has all over the world... but he hunts for a completly different reason than myself and a lot of other hunters do around here. Heck if somebody would pay for it I would go hunt anywhere with my White and a conical if it was for fun and/or advertisement... nah guess I wouldn't cause in my mind I gotta know I am going to harvest the animal as rapidly as I can with out a big turmoil... I hate wound channels I want dead channel - I do not want to knock him over or knock him down - I want him to be dead right after the shot. The same thought went into the ML shot on the 5 point bull a couple of years ago... I knew he was dead right after I pulled the trigger (and he was moving) but I also knew that he had seen me shoulder the rifle and I knew he new something was wrong so his flight response had already started... but when I cleaned him everything in his chest cavity was jello. He was moving down hill and continued to go down hill - not even one of your conicals would have changed that...

I should also say even though Idaho has put the screws to me during ML season making me switch to conicals - I really do not have a problem with that because I know I can do what I need with the Bull Shops but it will take a little different attitude on my part when it comes to pulling the trigger.