Understanding Sabots
10-02-2007, 10:30 AM
#1
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
Understanding Sabots
Understanding Sabots,Does anybody really?
For a while I thought that the key was in how tight they were,then I ran into the fact that some loads that are so tight that they are diffuicult like the 50/40 Shock Waves which as a for instance will normally hold an inch group,then when trying the .451 & 2's the crush rib sabot which loads easier than any of the others shootsbetter groups than any other[not expected the MMP HPH 24loads just right and shoots almost an inch larger average group].
I am wondering if maybe some one has some ideas on this, I like to buy new guns regular and it would help a lot if some one has a better understanding of them and could explain why what works works.
Thanks Guys. Lee
For a while I thought that the key was in how tight they were,then I ran into the fact that some loads that are so tight that they are diffuicult like the 50/40 Shock Waves which as a for instance will normally hold an inch group,then when trying the .451 & 2's the crush rib sabot which loads easier than any of the others shootsbetter groups than any other[not expected the MMP HPH 24loads just right and shoots almost an inch larger average group].
I am wondering if maybe some one has some ideas on this, I like to buy new guns regular and it would help a lot if some one has a better understanding of them and could explain why what works works.
Thanks Guys. Lee
10-02-2007, 10:56 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Understanding Sabots
ORIGINAL: lemoyne
Understanding Sabots,Does anybody really?
For a while I thought that the key was in how tight they were,then I ran into the fact that some loads that are so tight that they are diffuicult like the 50/40 Shock Waves which as a for instance will normally hold an inch group,then when trying the .451 & 2's the crush rib sabot which loads easier than any of the others shootsbetter groups than any other[not expected the MMP HPH 24loads just right and shoots almost an inch larger average group.
I am wondering if maybe some one has some ideas on this, I like to buy new guns regular and it would help a lot if some one has a better understanding of them and could explain why what works works.
Thanks Guys. Lee
Understanding Sabots,Does anybody really?
For a while I thought that the key was in how tight they were,then I ran into the fact that some loads that are so tight that they are diffuicult like the 50/40 Shock Waves which as a for instance will normally hold an inch group,then when trying the .451 & 2's the crush rib sabot which loads easier than any of the others shootsbetter groups than any other[not expected the MMP HPH 24loads just right and shoots almost an inch larger average group.
I am wondering if maybe some one has some ideas on this, I like to buy new guns regular and it would help a lot if some one has a better understanding of them and could explain why what works works.
Thanks Guys. Lee
I am intreged by sabots also and have bought a collection of 6 different sabots that I have tried shooting in different rifles. Some principles:
1) sabots are plastic and get soft with hot barrels or if you leave them in tooo long talking instead of shooting then the don't form a gas seal because they are soft and you loose accuracy
2) different thickness with different bullets in tight/loose barrels perform differently, and the Perfect sabot is one that goes down without hammering it down, but tight enough to do a gas seal
3) too hot a charge will damage some sabot and cause loss of accuracy, blown petals, deformed sabots cause accuracy loose, perfect sabot looks like a daisy
4) sabots are a lot cheaper than bullets, costing only around $5 to $7 for 50, they are the least expensive part of the MLer loading procedure, it don't make sense to shoot a $1 inaccurate bullet when you can get better accuracyby switch to a more accurate sabot
5)bullet repackagersswitch sabots with their bullets causing accuracy loss,best to find bullet and sabot that gives greatest accuracy and stay with it
6) really loose sabots don't shoot as accurate as really tight sabots, where tight is "push down with force", not pound down with a mallet or hammer
7) most people use the sabots supplied by the bullet packager and don't experiment with sabots
8) Semisane experiment was proof that sabotgreatly affected accuracy--same load, same bullet,same primer---different sabot, I thought it so important I printed it to PDF and placed it on my web site:
http://www.the-gleasons.com/Do%20Sabots%20Make%20a%20Difference%20in%20an%20in line--experiment%20by%20SemiSane%20same%20bullet,%20same %20powder%20different%20sabots.pdf
9. I believe you should take your breech plug out and with a clean barrel load every different kind of sabot you have with the SAME bullet to see which one loads the best---where loading the best means
tight without hammering it down.
So I am a big sabot believer. I bought the following packages of sabots and always have a supply of them:
mmp short black
HPH12
HPH24
EZ3petal
Crushed rib
Harvester long black
I only shoot 300 or nearly300g bullets and only in .452 or .451 diameter.That is my conclusions from reading/experimenting and shooting different sabots. I personally like the crushed rib the best for Nosler and Gold Dot, but they don't work well in my Savage.
Chap Gleason
10-02-2007, 11:06 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Understanding Sabots
Lee
Intersting thoughts as I have exactly the opposit results... the crush works but the 3p and 24 work better for me and of course I have to use the 12 in the White...
As to tight sabots the new polymere allows the sabot to go down easier than the older plastic sabots. The properties of the polymere allow it to expand and become very tight as heat and pressure increase - of course there is a limit. To me the "GRIP" of the sabot to the lands and grooves are the key. T7 use to say that he preferred the Harvesters because they are not as sticky as the MMP's - I guess I prefer the stricky sabots - although I do not find them sticky.
I really feel that I can shoot them in any conditions - even very hot and be within my 6" point blank range.
I really think you might e-mail Del @ MMP and pose your questions and thoughts. He is a really down to earth guy for running a large company - he even answers the phone on occasions. You as an accomplished shooter and he might really have a great conversation. He goes out of his way to provide help.
I have his e-mail address if you are inclined or simply call MMP and ask Connie to talk to him. He has know problem talking sabots including other manufactures and will not throw the blanket over.
Just some thoughts...
Intersting thoughts as I have exactly the opposit results... the crush works but the 3p and 24 work better for me and of course I have to use the 12 in the White...
As to tight sabots the new polymere allows the sabot to go down easier than the older plastic sabots. The properties of the polymere allow it to expand and become very tight as heat and pressure increase - of course there is a limit. To me the "GRIP" of the sabot to the lands and grooves are the key. T7 use to say that he preferred the Harvesters because they are not as sticky as the MMP's - I guess I prefer the stricky sabots - although I do not find them sticky.
I really feel that I can shoot them in any conditions - even very hot and be within my 6" point blank range.
I really think you might e-mail Del @ MMP and pose your questions and thoughts. He is a really down to earth guy for running a large company - he even answers the phone on occasions. You as an accomplished shooter and he might really have a great conversation. He goes out of his way to provide help.
I have his e-mail address if you are inclined or simply call MMP and ask Connie to talk to him. He has know problem talking sabots including other manufactures and will not throw the blanket over.
Just some thoughts...
10-02-2007, 01:33 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Understanding Sabots
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
He has know problem talking sabots including other manufactures and will not throw the blanket over.
He has know problem talking sabots including other manufactures and will not throw the blanket over.
10-02-2007, 02:51 PM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Understanding Sabots
gleason.chapman
He definetly knows sabots and he is willing to talk about them - his or theirs and he will bad mouth a competitor just because they are a competitior... Just a great guy
He definetly knows sabots and he is willing to talk about them - his or theirs and he will bad mouth a competitor just because they are a competitior... Just a great guy
10-02-2007, 02:51 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 194
RE: Understanding Sabots
Talking about sabots, does anyone know who makes the BLUE easy load sabots for the Knight ( Barnes, 50 cal., TMZ ) easy load. I tried them out and, in my Omega, they seem to load easier than the yellow and HPH12 sabots and tighter than the HPH24. I recovered them and they seem to drop off sooner than the other sabots and the petals open up less. They shot quite accurately and showed no signs of gas leakage from a 120 gr- FFFg charge of loose 777. I have some extra 290 gr TMZs and would like to buy these blue sabots for them.
10-02-2007, 03:02 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
RE: Understanding Sabots
You may already know this...The base of a sabot flairs when shot, this is what actually grips the rifling and helps impart the spin onto the bullet....How much it flairs is dependent upon the type plastic used (how hard, soft) and also the cup of the bottom of the sabot....Once the bullet leaves the barrel, a sabot with petals that flair quickly and drops off will generally be more accurate than a sabot that stays with the bullet longer...
A sabot that works well with say, 90grs of Pyrodex will not necessarily do well with a Savage loaded with smokeless powder because of the above...A sabot used with smokeless powder will see higher temperatures and higher pressure, so it should be made of a harder type material, with Pryodex you reach a point were this harder material doesn't flair as easily, reducing accuracy....
And...ML manufactures have not standardized what size a .50 caliber bore is...Generally Knights are over bore and T/Cs are under bore, this is where different thicknesses will come into play...Generally the base of a thinner sabot will flair enough to impart good spin on a bullet shot from a T/C, but you might need to go to a thicker sabot for a Knight....
So...When you load a sabot into a barrel...What makes it so hard is actually the combination of the petals of the sabot and the diameter of the bullet....Saying that a tight fitting load is more accurate isn't necessarily the case, because it is the base of the sabot and how it flairs or expands to fit the rifling that determines how well the bullet spins...Although, you do need the petal/bullet combination to be tight enough so when the sabot spins in the bore it passes this on to the bullet...
A sabot that works well with say, 90grs of Pyrodex will not necessarily do well with a Savage loaded with smokeless powder because of the above...A sabot used with smokeless powder will see higher temperatures and higher pressure, so it should be made of a harder type material, with Pryodex you reach a point were this harder material doesn't flair as easily, reducing accuracy....
And...ML manufactures have not standardized what size a .50 caliber bore is...Generally Knights are over bore and T/Cs are under bore, this is where different thicknesses will come into play...Generally the base of a thinner sabot will flair enough to impart good spin on a bullet shot from a T/C, but you might need to go to a thicker sabot for a Knight....
So...When you load a sabot into a barrel...What makes it so hard is actually the combination of the petals of the sabot and the diameter of the bullet....Saying that a tight fitting load is more accurate isn't necessarily the case, because it is the base of the sabot and how it flairs or expands to fit the rifling that determines how well the bullet spins...Although, you do need the petal/bullet combination to be tight enough so when the sabot spins in the bore it passes this on to the bullet...
10-02-2007, 03:33 PM
#8
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tri Cities, Washington
Posts: 1,616
RE: Understanding Sabots
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman
What are you saying here? He knows problems and likes talking sabots? OR He has known problem talking about sabots.....? Chap
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
He has know problem talking sabots including other manufactures and will not throw the blanket over.
He has know problem talking sabots including other manufactures and will not throw the blanket over.
Also, in Sabotloader's last post, I think he meant to type, "and he will NOT bad mouth a competitor....."
Mike is just a little nervous becausehunting season is approaching quickly and his honey-do list is growing and he is tired of Terry hitting him in the head with the frying pan! That is the simple reason for the typos.
10-02-2007, 04:15 PM
#10
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: Understanding Sabots
Gander,I think several of us have "fat fingers" including me,I notice asage and all that goes with it is causing a lot of those kind of problems,
Chapman, the thing that bothers me is the inconsistance,for instance the Omega and the Triumph both havethesame fit with the HPH 24 the Omegashoots one hole groups with them the Triumph shoots2.5 to 3 inch groups eith them the Omega shoots all over the place with crush ribs and the Triump shoots under an inch with them. I also keep 7 different sabots on hand if you are going to find the best load the right sabot is critical.
Lee
Chapman, the thing that bothers me is the inconsistance,for instance the Omega and the Triumph both havethesame fit with the HPH 24 the Omegashoots one hole groups with them the Triumph shoots2.5 to 3 inch groups eith them the Omega shoots all over the place with crush ribs and the Triump shoots under an inch with them. I also keep 7 different sabots on hand if you are going to find the best load the right sabot is critical.
Lee