Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I was looking at buying a new muzzleloader this year. I aquired some new hunting property and my old flinter won't cut it. I have the ability to take some very long shots that I have never had before. It's rolling farm fields mixed up with some good wood lots, fence lines, a swamp, overgrown orchard, etc. It's a hunter's heaven, and I have a full square mile to hunt and all only 10 minutes from my house. In Michigan, that's pretty hard to do.

At any rate I am looking for a muzzleoader that will reach out, and have been doing a lot of reading and looking. I was kind of set on the Omega, but I didn't want a synthetic stock. I like my stuff to look good, and to me, synthetic looks cheap. I didn't care for the grey laminated thumbhole stock either. I liked the limited edition rose/black/tan stock they had, but can't find one anywhere.

I found the Lyman on accident while browsing Cabelas. It's a beautiful looking gun. The price seems very good, Lyman has been around for a while. I wanted to know if this was a shooter or not? I liked the fact that it seemed a little heavier than the rest as well.

Cabelas has it weighing 8 3/4 pounds but on Lymans website it shows 7.5 pounds. Can anyone confirm one of those numbers?

Is it capable of good groups @ 250 yards?

Anyone try it with a Nikon Omega scope? I was thinking of putting that scope on there.

I have shot all of my deer(21 bucks and 30+ does) within 80 yards. I have never shot over 80. Most of my deer are archery kills so I really would like to shoot a couple over 200 yards and finally have the opportunity to do it, but I'm not trying to break my wallet either.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I highly recommend you buy a nice rifle and do one heckuva lot of shooting at all distances up to 300 yards before even contemplating such shots.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I would never take such a shot without a lot of practicing.

And I can't hunt with a rifle where I am hunting. I have a .270 for some range shooting if I need it. We are in the southern part of michigan where it is a shotgun zone. We can also use muzzleloaders in this zone. I do have a Mossberg 500 rifle barrled shotgun that does pretty good with the Winchester Partition Golds, but I'm not sure that it is capable of 200+. Besides that, you want a longer heavier gun for longer range shooting, which is why the 8 3/4 pounds that I saw on Cabelas site appealed to me, although I just noticed it had a 26" barrel as opposed to a 28" on the Omega.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I saw an add on that scope. It looked pretty cool. He was showing how he set it up with his Omega. And was shooting a 150 yard spinner target with ease. But with your archery skills, there will be no reason for the long shots. You know how to get close it sounds like.

As for the wallet.. you get into the inline part of this sport. Your wallet is going to hurt. There are lots of powders, primers, projectiles and what nots.. cleaning supplies, etc to test to find the best loads for some rifles. The rifle and scope is just the begining. Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear, but the cost of the rifle is your least worry. That will last you for many years. It is the other stuff that really starts to add up. I placed a bullet order last week, and it came to over one hundered dollars in bullets. Since this is my hobby, I do not get too excited. But some people freak when I spend that kind of money on bullets.

That does sound like an excellent spot.

While the synthetic stocks might look cheap, or the thumbhole stock is not your style, you are wanting to shoot EXTREME distances. Sometimes the rifle design with the synthetic stocks will help you in accomplishing that. Wood stocks might be pretty, but they are not alway the best choice in the field. Believe me, the synthetic stocks grow on you. A favorite of mine is a stainless steel barrel with a good black or graylaminate stock. It is sharp looking and very functional.

I could not tell you the true weight of the rifle. Then add to that a scope. I never get to concerned about rifle weight. Most my shooting is done from stands where I am seated and have a good rest to shoot from. That makes the rifle weight not as an important matter.

Will the Lyman shoot 250 in good groups? All rifles will shoot that far, but the good group part depends on how good a load it works up and how good a shot you are. I think you might be expecting too much from these rifles. Granted they can do it ... BUT what if the rifle's pet load is 85 grains of powder and a sabot combination. Lets say at 100 yards it shoots a 2" group with that. While at 200 it might open that to 6" or more, you might run into other factors like penetration.. etc.

If I were going to be in a spot where I had to shoot 200 yards, I would be looking at a Savage ML10-II (if legal), a Thompson Center Pro Hunter, a Knight Long Range Hunter, a T/C Omega, or a Knight Disc Extreme. From all the posts I have read by shooters on these forums.. these seem to be the rifles able to shoot the extreme distances with consistancy. Put a good quality scope on them and I think you really have a nice system. Some of the Knight Rifles have out of the box accuracy guarantees that are really impressive... These are just my opinions. I mean no slam on any of the other rifles out there.

I own a Black Diamond XR and a Knight Disc which I feel if I practiced A LOT I might be able to do that kind of shooting you are talking. 200 yards is extreme. 250 to me is a pipe dream with a muzzleloader although I know it has been done. 150 would be the max distance with a good scoped muzzleloader I would ever attempt. But again, those are limits I set for myself.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Cayugad,

You made me think about a few things. Thanks for the post. I know I can get close to deer. 90% of the deer I have taken have been within 30 yards, and probably 90% of those have been within 20. The 7 point I shot with my .308 last year was 27 yards away, and was the same exact blind and shot I made with my bow a month earlier. So getting close for me is not a problem.

It's the challenge I think I am looking for. The 2 things I would like to do this year is shoot one at long range and succesfully stalk a deer with my bow. This property may be good for both of them.

I'll keep my eyes peeled on these forums and this post. I really like how that guns looks but obviously there are more factors to buying a gun than looks, and i'll obviously need to practice a lot.

I have been shooting black powder for many many years. I used to have an inline, but I use my smoothbore flinter come muzzleoading season for the challenge. I've never lost 1 deer with that gun.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I've got a .62 caliber smoothbore and have deer hunted with it, but the deer never cooperated on days I was using that. I have close shots as well in the middle of the woods. Last year actually was a long shot for me at 52 yards. It was the first deer I took with my .54 caliber Lyman Flintlock Trade rifle. And that was a very exciting hunt for me.. even though it was the only deer I saw all season.

Best of luck with the rifle you select. There are some Mustang owners on the forum. I think Wabi has one and Semisane.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Moebedda, didn't mean to sound harsh but your post made it seem (at least to me) that you were green and over-ambitious. Nowthat you've shown me to be incorrect in that assumption ( yeah, I know... :D)I will only remind you 250 yards is a very long ways and beyond the reasonable capability of most muzzleloaders and/or their owners.

Your goal seems very deliberate though.Isuggest you look at meeting the problem with one of two approaches. The first would involve a rifle such as the Knight Long Range Hunter and a medium weight sabot round packing a high BC bullet. Such a load would represent a compromise between trajectory and energy retention. Most of the user reports I've seen regarding the Mustang report it to be a good, solid rifle but not an accuracy king. My guess is the trigger is no way on par with the Knight's. But I've not shot one - so take that info with a grain of salt.


Above is a recent group from Chuck Hill's new Knight LRH and a load that should hold together at extended range.

The other approach would be to use a rifle equally capable of accuracy downrange but firing a heavy weight conical with a snowball's trajectory. Theredeeming thing about such loads is the trajectory is VERY repeatable (and in my estimation actually less prone to upset and drift). I set about a few years back to make one clean kill at 200 yards using such a rifle and managed it - once and the only time I've tried such a shot at game.



The Knight's are often capable of handling both types of loads quite well and, IMHO,wear themost consistently accurate barrels available in the mainstream market. That's one reason a KnightKP1 may be in my future. :)

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Maybe 250 is a bit to far. I just figured these new muzzleoaders were capable. But I don't have all of the answers. I guess that's why I'm here asking questions. Although I have shot a lot of blackpowder, I don't have a whole lot of experience with these newer guns. I've always been into more of the trade style guns because I used to do Rendevous and the era I portrayed was French and Indian war. I'll have to take a picture of my "Indianized" smoothbore for you guys. I made the gun about 10 years ago, but it looks like an antique. I used Aqua Fortis on the stock and the curley maple stock almost looks black. At any rate you'll probably enjoy it or get a kick out of it.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

200 yards is really pushing the envelope. i have shot a couple of hogs nearly that far under ideal conditions from a good rest with my Encore-both were bang flops.You have toshoot often at 200 yards.When youcan consistently put your bullets in an 8 inch circle at 200 yards from a field rest-not a bench, youare ready to take a pop at a deer at that distance.Forget trying to shoot a deer or hog at 250 yards with a muzzleloader.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Having owned (note past tense ;)) a Lyman Mustang, and having had the chance to compare notes with a few other owners I would have to say the Mustang would not rank among the top rifles when it comes to accuracy.
I did finally find a load (Barnes 250 gr Expander behind 100 gr T-7 ffg) that would produce acceptable groups at 100 yards (3-4"), but certainly not a rifle/load combination I would use at 200 yards.
In all my years of shooting I have only owned a couple muzzleloaders I would be comfortable at making 200+ yard shots with, and then only if I had time to be 100% certain of the distance. A T/C Omega and a Rem. 700ML/SS. Both of those rifles would give close toMOA accuracy with careful loading. The Remington was the best for accuracy having produced a few 1/2 MOA groups with the best loads, and handled a wide variety of powders & bullets well.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

The Savage 10ML has a Thumbhole stock (and is one beautiful gun) and with 250g Shockwave or Parker Ballistic Extremes are capable of shooting 250 yards. Over on Doug's Savage Forum (Google it), there is a fellow named Herman, from NC, who shows consistent 2.5", 3"groups at 300 yards with 250g SW. I forget what powder he was shooting, but smokeless is more powerful than 3 pellets in just about any inline. MV of 2500 FPS is common, and I have heard of some shooting 2900 to 3000. You should google Doug's Savage Forum, and hang out reading some of the thread, you will find several that shoot 200 and 250 and even 300 yards. Chap Gleason

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

This Savage looks exactly like what I'm looking for. A little pricey, but I wanted a nice looking gun that shoots well. I also love the idea of using smokeless. No more cleaning after every hunt and it will last forever.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I don't own a Savage, but I personally think that would be a great choice.. It will be all the muzzleloader you will never need.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

It's to bad Austin & Halleck are not around anymore. They had some fine looking guns. Curley Maple for a gun stock cannot be beat IMO. It would be nice to find a Austin & Halleck 420 fancy grade in stainless.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

To my knowledge, the A&H rifles were not made in stainless. They offered blued or nickel plated. Some of the A&H barrels produced very good accuracy and you are right about the beauty of those maple stocks, but the A&H bolt is/was a finicky thing with many owners having adjustment issues. The length of the bolt added a lot of length (and extra weight) to the rifle. I owned 2 of the 320s and 1 420 but neverhad one I really considereda keeper.Cleaning that action was also a bit of a pain.

This rifle is about to hit thedistributors (per Knight) and I think it looks great (at least in the pics). I'm guessing it's going to be a winner. The biggest negative I'm aware of is the non-adjustable trigger - -there's always a hone. :)
There are some choices in design I would have made differently but Knight has apparently done a great job with this one. All the write-ups I've seen from those that had the opportunity to handle and shoot one have been extremely positive.

Just another for you to consider since you have yet to purchase a rifle.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Here is a guy shooting a Savage 300 yard, look at the groups:

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thre ad=1191183062

A bit pricey? No, you can get a blue barrel, but you said you wanted a SS and you wanted "pretty", so with "pretty" you get pricey. Here is a comparison of the Savage to the Pro Hunter, since you mentioned pricey. I don't think you can beat the Savage for out of the box accuracy.
Chap Gleason

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

nice looking, see this.

Shoots well, I shot this group the 3rd time I had my rifle out:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/TC_Shockwave_300g_2007_06_02_AA5744_44g_FederalPri mer_default%20sabot.jpg

I have NEVER shot a 100 yard group like that in my life, with any gun. I am an average marksman. In my mind from what you said, I think the Savage is the gun for you. Chap Gleason

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Just got home from a week-end at the hunting lease (shooting the Mustang), so I'm a little late on this thread. However, I will echo wabi's comments regarding the Mustang. Mine certainly is not a 250 yard gun. In fact, at 100 yards, the best loads in my old TC New Englanderwill equal the Mustang's best loads. That said, I like the gun. Don't know why - maybe'cause it's so damn finicky that it gives me lots to experiment with. It's a fine 100 yard gun with lots of loads, but no tack driver.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Is the Savage even legal to use in Michigan?

Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31578--,00.html

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Smokeless sounds like a good commercially manufactured black powder substitute to me.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Tell it to the judge, Moebedda, and just hope he's a Savage shooter. :D I guess it's all in how 'ya read it.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Let's examine the wording here.

"Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute."


The savage is a muzzleloading rifle. You can shoot blackpowder, a pyrodex type substtitue, or substitute smokelss for it.

Smokeless is also commerically manufactuered. It appears to fall within the rules. I suppose you can interpret that a little differently if you wanted to, but the wording does not omit smokeless as a viable substitute.

I don't see where the problem is.

I can't see a CO making me unload my gun to see which type of powder I am using. It's obviously a muzzleloader. The ramrod gives that away.

I won't have to unload it and clean it after every hunt, and will last forever. I could leave it loaded all season and clean it after the season is done technically(hopefully I will be shooting though)? Is that recomended?

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

why then does it not simply say "commercially manufactured powder"? Think you best ask someone ?? before laying down the cash. The Savage is a real pain with Pyrodex (so I'm told).

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Dont push colorado laws. You get busted, they have the right the take everything in your camp and write you a nice ticket to add insult. IMO, if you want to shoot smokeless, thats what a centerfire is there for.

As for michigan laws, It sounds like blackpowder or blackpowder subs are only legal. If smokeless powder was legal, it would have been mentioned.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I hunt Michigan and you CANNOT use smokeless during the muzzleloader season, period. Unless you plan on using the Savage only for the general gun season or out of state, you're wasting your money.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I just found this looking into this further. HOUSE BILL 4554

I hope this passes. Everyone in this state knows that our DNR could not manage thier way out of a wet paper bag, let alone our deer herd. They all should be fired IMO. But thats a different topic for a different time and on different forums.

I also found this post in regards to this Bill by member rsdrmh who attended the commitee meeting about this bill. He brought up some valid points one of which I will quote below.

How can it be enforced? The law is unclear and not specific enough. There is nothing that clearly defines what constitutes a "substitute". In my eyes, smokeless could be considered a "substitute" in a Savage and is not against the law according to how it is written. I would be willing to challenge this in a court of law if it comes to that.

I would be interested to see if anyone has got a ticket for using smokeless in Michigan during a muzzleloading season. My money would be on NO. I seriously doubt they are enforcing this. I just tried multiple google searches and found zero records.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Moebedda the way I read it.. smokeless powder use would be illegal. Whether a warden is going to make you unload your rifle.. who knows what them people will do. I think if Michigan is the main state I was going to hunt with this rifle, at this time I would pass on the Savage, or wait until smokeless is permitted. Wisconsin recently went and allowed smokeless. It took another forum member to point that out to me as I was certain it was illegal.

I was always under the impression that Savage rifles shot Triple Se7en well and with no problem...

Call a warden and ask them. They usually don't know the answer if they are like the ones around here, but it is nice to confuse them.:D

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

You've sparked an interest. I got out of the woods this morning from bowhunting and started doing some research. I came accross this which explains many of the commerical black powder substitutes that we are using today.

So basically what this is saying is. Some brillant marketing guy at Savage needs to take the some of the popular smokeless powders used in the 10ML and "re-label" them as a "black powder substitute used ONLY in Savage muzzleoaders" and all should be good.

That probably will make this gun legal in all 50 states. The fact that Michigan allows Pyrodex, American Pioneer, Triple Se7en, or flammable pellets or sticks, they are already allowing smokeless propellants as classified by the United States Department of Transportation (Class 1.3 hazardous materials). You are allowed to use these propellants in Michigan simply because they say "Black Powder Substitute" on the label.

Quite amusing actually.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Colorado clearly states No Smokeless powder in their game book and website.

If Doegirl hunts michigan and states that smokeless is not legal, dont try bending the rules and ruining it for everyone else who follows the rules.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

did you actually read what I posted? Maybe you should.

A majority of people in mighigan use propellants such as Pyrodex, 777, pellets and whatnot. They are all breaking the law. or are they? According to the United States Department of Transportation (Class 1.3 hazardous materials), they are considered smokeless propellants, therefore breaking the law, yet they advertise on thier packaging "black powder substitute" and are thus accepted in this state as a susbstitute. It doesn't state anywhere the chemical make up of a "black powder substitute", nor does it say you cannot substitute non-branded smokeless powders. Smokeless is smokeless wheather your using Pyrodex or Accurate Arms 5744. I don't even think this is regulated at all. I think it is an unwritten rule that as long as it says "black powder susbstitute" on the package, it's legal to use, which is why I am challenging the wording of the regulation.

Can u use Pyrodex in CO?

Does anyone know, or is there a another federal agency that determines what is considered a "black powder substitute" Maybe look on your Pyrodex cans. All of my cans are the real stuff.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I'll say it again Mobedda, "Tell it to the judge."

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

pyrodex, app, t7, goex are all legal in colorado. None of the blackpowder subs, such as the ones i have listed are smokeless. In fact, t7 smokes more than real blackpowder. Blackpowder is an explosive and extremely hard to come by and thats where the subs come in. They are harder to ignite and safer to handle than real blackpowder.

Ever see a front stuffer from the 1800s shooting smokeless powder?

Where does it say that pyrodex is smokeless?

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Pyrodex was long ago marketed as a "smokeless propellant for muzzleloaders" right on every bottle. I'm not sure if it is now.

But evidently, the US Department of Transportaion, classifies them as smokeless propellants. I still question wheather or not there is another governmental agency that classifies this as a "black powder substitute".

discussion moved to a new thread found at http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2354475

This thread kind of got off topic.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I can never understand why people want to shoot over 200 yds with a muzzy. Are they capable? In this day and age Yes. But can the average joe reach that accuracy, probably not. All this shooting to the moon distance is rediculous if you have to shoot that far then buy a centerfire. I hunt with bow and muzzy because I enjoy the stalks and challenge in one shot encounters. I would get bored and quit hunting if every time I killed a buck at 400 yards with my centerfire year after year, what fun is that.I don't mean to pee people off but this is what manufactures want, they want us craving distances with muzzies so they can claim to shoot 200yds, 300 yds and so on so they can have a market. All the tests done with any muzzy are in a controlled enviroment shot in a sled or by mechanic mechanicismand usually no wind/rain etc under perfect conditions. Bottom line is buy what you want for the distance you expect to shoot and practice and enjoy this sport. Don't buy it because the gun company says it will shoot 200 yds. Every gun will shoot diffrently even if you bought twoconsecutive guns.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

I will quote myself from my very 1st post.

and from my 3rd post.

I'm working on fullfilling the bow stalk as soon as we get some cooler weather. Right now i am posting in a ladder stand and trying to pattern the deer and get used to some new hunting property while it's as warm as it is.

The reason I am on these forums is to do the research before I purchase. I think the best input comes from the people who use like you and I, not the people who write the articles and host the hunting shows.

RE: Lyman Mustang opinions??
 

Since you want to get 200, 250 yards, here is what Rifleman over on Doug's says is a recipe for a 300 yard Savage MLer:

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thre ad=1191349035

Best wishes for your quest of a 250 yard gun. Agree with you that a MLer is a MLer regardless of powder type, they are trying to change their law, so they are aware of that. You can always use 777 the first year or so and then switch to smokeless when the law changes. Chap Gleason