Inputs for comparison wanted.
 

I have been doing a little impromtu research into ballistic comparisons between the cappabilities of different loadings within groups of hunting weapons but have only a few that I have personally tested. Other information I have been using is published info from the manufacturers. Basically what I'm trying to determine is how much difference in range there is within a given catagory, i.e. from slow CF to fast CF or slow ML to fast ML or slow arrow to fast arrow. I'm having the most trouble finding comparisons for archery.

So far I have run some numbers for22 CF and 7 ML loadings. The CF's are 30-30, 308, 30-06, 300WM, 35 REM, 300UM, 7mmRM and 7mmUM (several bullets for each). I picked these due to some personal testing and their popularity and range of cappabilities. For ML I used mostly loads that I have tested and they include 50PRB(2 loads), 250SW(2 loads), 300SST and 460NE plus a 300gr load from a BP Express. For archery I have just been using listed speeds and standard arrow weights.

The basis for comparisons I have been using so far are 6" Point Blank Range, 1000FPE range and 700FPE range. I picked the 1000 and 700 energyranges due to those being popular figures for the minimums for elk and deer respectively in several publications I have seen.

The differences have proven to be interesting so far. The CF from highest to lowest range expressed in percentspreadare 75% (PBR), 728% (1000FPE), 540% (700FPE). For the ML the spreadsare 70% (PBR), 2186% (1000FPE), 1364% (700FPE). For archery I compared an arrow of the same weight, one going at 230fps and another going 330fps. The results were a 100%spread in drop at 50 yards.

Note that in the ML catagory the range is skewed by the BP Express. Without it thespreads were 41% (PBR), 1750% (1000FPE), 1364% (700FPE). The 460 maintained more energy forfarther than the BP Express with the 300gr bullet.

So based on what I've looked at so far the only place that the ML has a largerspread is in the energy catagory most of which is due to a slow 50PRB compared to a relatively fast 460NE and very fast 300 from the BP Express. The 460NE only had an 11 yard advantage over the slower 50PRB when comparing PBR so energy was the only realadvantage from a point blank range standpoint of those twoloadings.

Also when comparing CF to ML, the CF averaged +61% (PBR), +160% (1000FPE), +111% (700FPE). This includes the BP Express. Without the BP Ex theCF averagesare about 10% greater.

What I would like is some input on some common loads (bullet, weight and velocity)that you all use in your ML'ers to add more data to compare to. Also if any of you also have data for archery, or know where I could find some, I would appreciate that info too.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

RE: Inputs for comparison wanted.
 

Might I sugest for the CF/ML compairisons that you pick CF calibers that shoot the same caliber bullet that the ML would use. IE: if a ML shoots a 35 cal bullet in a sabot compair that to 35 caliber cartidges (35 Rem,358 Win, 35 Whelen, 44 cal ML sabot to a CF 44 cal (44 mag, 444 Malin) 45 cal ML sabot to 45 cal CF (45 Colt, 454 Casul, 45/70, 458 Win Mag) and so on. That way the numbers will be directly compairable, energy, velocity, trajectory. Apples to apples so to speak.

I've read adds where they claim a ML has the performance of a 7mm Mag. I say REALY? What they meant to say is the ML develops the same energy as a 7mm Mag, the velocity and trajectory of a 7mm Mag are obviously better. A misleading ad in my opinion.

RE: Inputs for comparison wanted.
 

Man...You have way too much time on your hands...:D

If you didn't have so many posts on here I would wonder what the heck, is this guy trying to show this or that gun won't kill a deer....

I have two different BP loads that I use for deer...My Knight Disc with a 22 inch barrel likes 90 grains of either Pyrodex R-S or Goex FFF and a 250 SST...I don't know the velocity but I do know that sighted in 2 1/2 inches high at 100 it hits 2 1/2 to 3 inches low at 150...I shot a buck a couple of years ago at 143 yards with a 250 SST...Hit through the shoulder blade, he dropped...Have no idea of the velocity or fpe...

The other is my .54 flintlock, I have used for about 20 years, 38 inch barrel, using a .530 home cast ball and 80 grains Goex FFF...Sighted in 2 inches high at 50 I'm about an inch low at 100 and about 4 inches low at 125 yards...Longest shot was 8-10 years ago (or so)...Decent 6 pointer, about 115 yards away, another high shoulder shot, fell right there....I bet if you run the ballistics on that load, it doesn't have enough energy to kill a deer...:D

RE: Inputs for comparison wanted.
 

Goatbrother,
I hadn't thought of doing a by caliber comparison, I will look into that. I was just wanting to see if all the claims of modern inlines being equal to CF rifles had any validity, so far I find that none are comparable to a CF in terms of Point Blank Range unless you compare them to the 30-30 or 35 Rem. Even many sidelocks compare to those two calibers when shooting something other than a PRB at typical hunting velocities. As for the 7mm to ML comparison you mention, here is an energy comparison for my 175gr 7mm load to the BP Express with a 300gr SST. Muzzle 3497/4163, 100 yards 3051/3161, 200 yards 2652/2356, 300 yards 2296/1735, 400 yards 1979/1269, 500 yards 1697/950. The BP Ex starts out higher but drops quickly compared to the 7mm. The trajectory isn't even close with the 7mm being down about 32" at 500 yards (6" PBR sight in) and the BP Ex being down 84" at 500 yards set up the same way.

Nchawkeye,
Your SST load, according to my ballistics program, is going around 1600fps and would give you a 6" PBR of around 153 yards. It drops to 1000FPE at about 95 yards and to 700FPE around 205 yards. The round ball load worked out to about 1500fps with a 6" PBR of 125 yards, 1000FPE at 11 yards and 700FPE at 47 yards. Your shot of 115 yards still had 457FPE at the target. These numbers are approximate based on your info.

RE: Inputs for comparison wanted.
 

"I have been doing a little impromtu research into ballistic comparisons between the cappabilities of different loadings within groups of hunting weapons but have only a few that I have personally tested. Other information I have been using is published info from the manufacturers. Basically what I'm trying to determine is how much difference in range there is within a given catagory, i.e. from slow CF to fast CF or slow ML to fast ML or slow arrow to fast arrow. I'm having the most trouble finding comparisons for archery."

The effective range difference depends more on the shooter than the gun - how good is the shooter at estimating range, and how well does the shooter know the trajectory of his/her weapon ?? (I guess the same would apply to archery as well.) Up to perhaps 150 yards, most muzzleloaders canmake killing hits on deer-size game without too much "Kentucky Elevation" being required. Beyond that, even the fastest ones will need some hold over. A round ball of .54 caliber or above, loaded with 1/2 the weight of the ball in loose powder, will kill deer-size game out to at least 200 yards, if placed correctly. The Hawken, in the early 19th Century, was considered effectiveon large game out to 200 yards.

"so far I find that none are comparable to a CF in terms of Point Blank Range unless you compare them to the 30-30 or 35 Rem. Even many sidelocks compare to those two calibers when shooting something other than a PRB at typical hunting velocities."

Your conclusions here are valid ones!! When the day comes when ML are equal to CF rifles, we will see a lot more restrictions. Most of these claims are advertising hype, and many of the "experts" are in cahoots with the gun peddlers! But as nchawkeye points out, you cannot compare the killing power of a big, fat, soft, round ball to a modern bullet - they kill in entirely different ways!

RE: Inputs for comparison wanted.
 

eldeguello,

I agree that the shooter has as much or more to do with effective range than the gun or bow, I know several bow hunters who have and do take game at 75, 85 even 100 to 115 yards but I wouldn't suggest that to anyone who doesn't practice a lot.. That is why I limited my comparisons to the gun and load related factors of 6" point blank range and the ranges at which the load dropped to 1000 and 700 foot pounds of energy. I felt these gave as close to an apples to apples point of reference in doing the comparisons.

When the BP Express is left out the longest accurate 6" PBR load I've looked at is a 130gr pyro pellet load with a 250SW at 2100fps that came in at 194 yards. This was followed closely by the same load under a 1950fps 300SW at 186 yards. The BP Express PBR was only 234 yards even though I ran the numbers at 2500fps. The 30-30 load by comparison has a 6" PBR of 214 yards with a 150gr bullet at 2390fps. Most loads, as you stated, have a 6" PBR of between 125 and 175 yards whether they are PRB or conical or sabot.