New to muzzleloading
 

This year will by my firstto hunt with a muzzleloader. I will be hunting in Colorado andso far have a good understanding of the rules for muzzeloader huntingthere. I have alsoconducted quite a bit of research on different muzzleloaders in trying to decide which one to buy. My initialthought was that I would buy a T/C Omega, but after reading a few of the threads on this forum, itsounds like the Omega may not shoot conicals very well or at all.

My question is, is this presumption true? What is everyone's experience with the Omega and conicals? If this is the case, what are some good alternatives to look at? Iam also looking at the T/C Encore as well as a couple of the Knight muzzleloaders. Any help provided is much appreciated.

elkhunter004

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Well for conical shooting my first choice would be a White Rifle. There were some White Lightening Rifles for sale. Whether they are still there I could not tell you. They come up for sale and it is not for long and they are gone. C-dad bought one. I think there were two for sale. Whether the other one is there I could not say, but that would be your best conical shooting inline rifle on the market.

My Black Diamond XR will shoot conicals. Others claim their BD will not. So I do not know what to tell you. I don't own an Omega, so I can not help you there.

With the kind of restrictions you have, no scopes, conicals, etc.. Have you considered a Lyman Great Plains Hunter? They have a 1-32 twist, and are known conical shooters. While they are traditional style, that does not mean that they could not shoot the same kind of distances, asan inline for instance. In fact with a Lyman Peep sight on a GPH you might have one real good long distance rifle there.

It is so hard to tell someone what will and will not shoot a conical. I bought a nice little CVA Stalker with a 1-32 twist guessing it will shoot conicals and sabots. Well it shoots conicals fine, sabots no so fine. I still have a lot of testing to do with it, so I am not giving up on it yet though..

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

All the T/C rifles have the QLA which seems to be the problem with conical shooting ability. Some will shoot some conicals. Most will shoot Powerbelts. There are other better conical rifles. The White is the best but also the hardest to find. The White company is in and out of business on a regular basis. I believe if you contact Josh at White he might still have a couple of 91's for sale. If I were looking for a Colorado rifle I would pick that one as it is the only White currently available other than used and they go so fast that I usually miss them. I think the NEF will also shoot conicals pretty well and they are available. I have one and it requires purchasing a new ramrod from Hubbards Outdoors as the stock ramrod is a joke. I also purchased the .25ACP breecplug conversion which I prefer over the plastic carriers that they designed the rifle with. If you consider that in the price then the low cost of the NEF is not quite so low. I do like the rifle however and they are noted for excellent triggers as delivered. You might look at the CVA Optima Elite as it has a Bergera barrel which is a step above the previous spanish barrels. I am not sure how they handle conicals. Try to handle some of your choices to see what feels good to you. Good luck and welcome to the Muzzleloading world. Be advised the "bug" bites hard and the tendency to continue buying rifles seems to happen to all. NOTE: Dave got his entry in before mine but he also likes the White. He got his before I got mine but I have another on order so I guess I am slightly ahead of him. The Lightnings are both sold from what I gathered. The last time I talked with Josh about a week ago he thought he still had a couple of 91's there. Worth a try. White Rifles toll free 1-877-684-4867.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

All the White Lightenings I mentioned are gone. Like I said, they don't last long. Now a Super 91 would be a nice conical shooter as well. MLKeith is more up on what White has for sale then I have. He has a couple Whites I believe. I only have one, and only need one the way mine shoots.. :D

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

I apologize for my ignorance. But when everyone is referring to White Rifles, are you referring to the muzzleloaders built by Doc White himself, or to the current company White Rifles LLC? I am still learning about the industry, but there appears to be a difference between the two to me.

elkhunter004

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

I recomend White rifles also. I have a Lightning and a Super 91 in .504 cal. Great conical shooters. I had an Omega and unfortunately it would not shoot conicals very well. You can always send your TC's to precision rifle works to get the QLA removed, which seems to help in conical shooting.

I bought a Old stock/NIB Knight MK-85 on gun broker.com for $195 and it shoots the NE .503 460gr conical just as well as my Whites do. My experience with Knight Rifles is that most will shoot conicals well.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

I believe they are refering to White LLC. I don't think Doc White has any rifles left, but you could certainly check with him also.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Come on guys, the Whites aren't that hard to find. I have bought 5 in about the last 8-9 months. Two of those within the last month. Just gotta be FAST!!! :D

If you are serious about getting a white, let one of us White guys know and we can put you in touch with Rattus in Hawaii. I think he has can hook you up with a 91.

Aloha!;)

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

If your hunting in colorado your going to have to use PowerBelts or Harverster Sabre Tooth in an Omega, of the two I recommend SabreTooth:

http://www.harvesterbullets.com/loadSaber.htm

You can ue loose powder in an Omega, and it will do just fine, as will an Encore. Chap Gleason

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Chapman, there are a lot of good conicals besides those expensive two you mention. If a person is lucky enough to get an Omega with a well made barrel and properly done QLA section (well, properly would be"absent" but...) it should shoot well with any number of bullets. But the rifle's trigger guard can be BRUTAL when shooting heavy loads.

Some of the Knights shoot conicalsvery well. But I would also recommend a White if you can locate a good specimen. Parts are rapidly becoming an issue with the Whites though. Several recently wanted to buy extra triggers (as future insurance) and a special order had to be made from the makers of Bold triggers.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

My logic is that the author of the thread said he was thinking Omegao or Encore, so I stuck with an Omega or Encore. Sure there are a lot of guns that will shot conicals. I would not recommend a White for just the reason you said, parts and fixing if things go wrong. TC is excellent in that regard. Hope that help. Chap Gleason

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Thanks to everyones responses so far. I really want to find a rifle I can count on to shoot conicals here in Colorado. Right now, I am not going to go out and spend the money on an Omega if I am going to take to the range and find out it won't shoot what I want it to shoot.

So anyway, what is the deal with White rifles exactly? I go to their website and it looks like I can order a Super 91 or an M98 online. Is this true or is their website not well maintained? Is anyone familiar with the M98? Is it comparable to the White Lightening that seems to be pretty hard to find? The M98 looks like it could be good rifle, but nobody has mentioned it so far, so I thought I would ask.

elkhunter004

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Besides the white, do a search on the winchester x-150 and winchester apex. Both will allow you to shoot conicals and sabots. Im from colorado and shoot the x-150 and its a tack driver. Also take a look at the traditional muzzleloaders.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

If you contact Tom at Sunrisearchery, he will be able to give you status on availiblity of a White. www.sunrisearchery.com

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

As has been noted; the White Rifle Company is not presently producing rifles and unless they find more financial support they likely will not in the near future. You need to call for availability as the ones listed in the online site are usually not available. As I said before there might be a couple of 91's (which are a good choice) left. The 98 is not, as well as Thunderbolts and any of the others listed. The question about White Rifle vs. Doc White is too long to go with here but the main story is Doc started the company and it has changed hands several times since. At one time it was called MTI (Muzzleloading Technologies Inc.) which is what my stainless 97 Whitetail Hunter is. Doc still works on and sell rifles when he can get the parts but is running low on material. Parts could be a problem sometime in the future but they are so well made that I doubt that should concern you unless you shoot 100 rounds a month on a regular basis. As I stated before and some are telling you there are other less difficult to find rifles that will shoot conicals ; Winchesters etc. (most are spanish rifles but that is OK if you follow the owners manuals and do not run magnum loads that are not recommended). I think the concerns about spanish barrels being soft or capable of failing has been advertised a little more than necessary. I don't own any but I know several do and have good luck with them.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Here is the manual for the Omega:

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Omega_Muzzleloader_Manual.pdf

you can see on page 61 of 64 in the PDF that it will shoot Maxi-balls or Maxi hunters. What do you want to shoot? I know it shoots PowerBelts really well. I know it shoot the Saber Tooth very well. Same with the Encore.You have to experiment with loads and bullets to find the correct load and bullet that will work in yourgun. Open sights, no sabots and loose powder isI believe the requirements in colorado, and .50 caliber or above for elk. So the Omega or Encore should be able to do that with a bore size bullet, the PowerBelt and the Saber Tooth are both bore size conicals, not sabots. Buffalo bullets are another choice, there are several good bullets--so of the guys I read are using "BullStops" and getting great accuracy. You might also want to consider a percussion from TC such as the Hawken Caplock here:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzTraditional.php

they are an excellent rifle also with good ignition, but not as good as the 209 shot shell primer. You can't beat that for firing all the time.
Chap Gleason

Chap Gleason

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

UC, Please point this out to the gentlement that posted. I am aware of several other ones, but I don't have the experience with them that some do on this forum, so it is better if they respond from their experience. elkhunter004 is selecting a gun/bullet combination for a ML elk hunt, in ML season not rifle season, because if it is rifle season then any in-line with any bullet is legal in Rifle season. Please give him bullets you think will do the job and a gun that will do the job. I think either the Omega or Encore will do the job for him with whatever bore sized conical that shoots well in the gun he buys.
Chap

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

I was not one of the lucky ones.

Steve

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Steve, You need to experiment with the bullet, sabot and load. For example the TC ShockWave a beautiful shooting, but my gosh are they hard to load. I have found that Harvester Crush Rib sabot works for me with a 300g bullet (Hornady, Gold Dot or Nosler Partition) with about 100g of 777. So I would not give up on the Omega accuracy, start with what the manual says, get it hitting good then start experimenting with different bullet and load combos. It will cost some money and time, but when your done, you will have an accurate good shooting and your confidence will be good.
Chap Gleason Va

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Too late - its history.I went way beyond what should be needed to get a gun to shoot even marginally well.
Four different powders in wide range of charge, 4 or 5 conicals(best pattern could be matched with some shotguns), and at least 5 sabot combo's that never approached a group useful outside of 20 yds.

Sent back for evaluation - returned with a huge scratch in the laminate stock and the advise to shoot pellets - which I refuse to do. After 4 unanswered calls requesting to talk with a supervisor, I gave up and stopped the hemorrhaging. Sold a top of the line $500 plus anchor for a $100 to a friend willing to use pellets and limit range. With powder, projectiles and shipping, lost well over $500 - needless to say, Tc will never see another dime and I am not bashful about sharing the reason. I know others have received nothing but fine service from them, but this was not so in my case.

The best customer service department is the one never needed - TC's is reportedly good because they get far more practice then they should.

Steve

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Boy that is a bad experience,I am so sorry to hear about that. I sent my Omega back after 4 years because the trigger would not hold back in cocked position and they put a whole new trigger assembly on it, but it took two months. I can usnderstand why you are so down on them given loosing $500.
Chap Gleason

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

If it were me going to Colorado for an elk hunt (and I wish it was), I would probably opt for a percussion sidelock hurling the biggest chunk of lead I can shoot accurately. The man can't use scopes, sabots, or pellets. So why bother with an inline? I betcha a T/C Hawken with maxiballs would fit the bill just fine. It's old school, but you have to deal with the laws.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

im from colorado and i use both styles of rifles. Not all inlines have to use sabots,pellets and a scope.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Chap - like I said - just not lucky:)
Steve

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Very true. I just think he may have better luck getting conicals to group with a Hawken or Lyman GPR than he would with a great deal of inlines.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

While it may be true that some inlines don't shoot conicals well, in my experience most inlines do very well with them. My Magbolt shoots the 460NE just as accurately as my Lyman GPH. Both print them right around an inch or less at 100 yards. The 3 Knight Discs that a friend has puts them into less than 1.5" and he's nearly blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.:)It's just a matter of finding the loads/bullet your gun likes.

I would suggest getting whatever style gun you like that fits you and is comfortable to shoot and carry and find a load that works with it. You will be happier that way. Good luck.

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Yes, but it was not good to hear that TC would not do anything for you like a new Barrel. Chap Gleason

RE: New to muzzleloading
 

Dmurphy317,
That is what I also recommend buy the gun first that you want to use that is legal in colorado. Then he sould work on bullets, loads, primers and testing them at 25 forwindageand 50 yards, then go to 100 once you find a bullet that groups at 50. If a bullet will not group after 6 shot discard it, keep a journal of each shot and buy loose powder. Try the NE, bull Stops, PowerBelt 348 and Harvester Saber Tooth 350, starting at 80 grains, which ever one does the best groups at 50 yards then shoot that at 100, realize that open sights is going to spread your groups out by3 or 4inches.
Chap Gleason