Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Well the process of test loads and slugs for Colorado has started.
While shooting yesterday I started to think about all those guys who spit and swab after each shot while practicing. During a hunting situation you would not have time to spit and swab. You would be lucky to get 2 shots off most 3.I am also taking into account that the spit and swab method will give you the best groups. Question- Why would you sight your gun in for hunting with this method? Would it be more sensible to sight in the way you hunt, no more than 3 shots at a time then clean the bore and start again. Started testing no excuses and like what I see at 50 yards so far.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

While swabbing the barrel is a good way to work up an accurate load since technically you want to keep all contributing factors to accuracy about the same.. your correct. When I work my final hunting load I like the idea that I can load a second shot without swabbing. When I have my load worked up, I will often then shoot as many shots as I can without swabbing, just to see how the rifle reacts.

Although consider this.. if you place your first shot correctly, and then take the time to swab the barrel properly and reload, this should give the animal a chance to react to the hit, go some distance or lay down. I have yet to need a second shot on an animal with a muzzleloader. So swabbing for the second shot is not all that far fetched.

With those No Excuse Conicals, if your shooting a good powder charge under them and then putting that large chunk of lead in the right place, I would worry more about where I left my knife then whether I need to swab the barrel. The destructive power of large conicals is impressive to say the least.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

In my opinion (and I have lots of them I'm told;)), When I swab I am trying to replicate my first shot from a clean barrel. My first shot and hopefully my second shot from a swabbed barrel will hopefully be very close to one another.I really don't like the idea of fouling a barrel before hunting. Mainly because I'm a little on the lazy side and don't like having to clean a rifle for no real good reason. As for the 2nd and 3rd shots well I haven't had the need for it (ML or CF), so taking the time to load up properly isn't really an issue. Heck by the time the smoke clears they (deer) don't usually offer up a decent shot anyways.

With my Omega, swabbing between shots helps me keep a 5 shot group under 2 inches at 100 yds. Admittedly,this has not been the case with my flintlock (yet) @ 50 yds,but I am working on that issue.

To swab or not to swab, I guess it really boils down to your own personal prefference. (waffle):D

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

I use bore butter in the field to SWAB--I pre make up patches with a little bit of bore butten rubbed into a patch about 6 or 8 and put them in a baggie---and only consider that I am going to get 1 shot, exactly like bow hunting except you got 50 yards more range effectively (my max shot with a bow is 25 yards and I am very good at that range 6 or 6 in kill zone every time). I hardly ever have to have a 2nd shot and there is always adequate time to swab and shove one down the barrel. I have even shot two deerafter getting a buck and the doe he was following came back to see what happen to him---after I climbed down from the tree. So just count on a single shot, most of the time, say 90% you will not need the 2nd shot, and most of the time I don't even load since it is boom flop in most cases the last 3 years. Chap Gleason

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Agree with you 100%, they won't need the 2nd shot, boom flop.
Chap Gleason

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Swab in field isrequred for good accuracy and easy loadingaccording to TC from the BP percussion and FL manual, see:
http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf
Chap Gleason

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Oh ya that's the other reason I do it.:DGeez chapman you're taxing my memory. I haven't read that (TC)manual in dang near 30 years. By the way I just went and looked at it and that quote is on page 58 of mine.;)

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Yep, once I started swabing between shots my groups shrunk by 1" to 2" most of the time, at 100 yards with my Omega.Yes, the manual is good and once you know what it says with some experience you can follow it. I think it isdifficult for a new person to learnjust from the manual. I think it is easier to learn from a buddy. Chap Gleason

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Learning from a buddy. Agreed
Only problem here is that nobody shoots them that much.[&o]And it has been a self / www taught lesson plan for me and I have people like you and cayugadto thank for those lessons.:)

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

I think the web is a super resource and I have learned a tremendous amount from Cayugad and Sabotloader they have a reason for everything they do and it is from the school of experience so I really appreciate their wisdom. I am happy that I have been a help to you, I sure was perplexed about this MLing sport about 4 years ago. Hunting iseasy, stand selection is easy. Powder selection was easy, once I learned loose was better for working up a load. Bullet performancehas been along road for me, and I have an MS in math and a minor in physics, so I should understand the basic physics of bullet performance, bullet construction, penetration, expansion, sectional density, terminal performance. But it is not clear cut on bullet performance on 'thin skined' game. I think I am going to start keeping a shooting journal, since I have read, that theFinn Aagaard kept a log of every bullet he shot, rifle, load, casing, wind conditions, etc.These were the inventors of the Bear Claw, the forerunner of the current"bonded bullets". Very interesting stuff I also like to talk to reloaders at gun shows and pick their brain onhow they learned about bullets and reloading and bulletperformance. They love talking about it, I have learned a lot talking to them.There seems to be an absence of good books on bullet design, bullet performance and basic ballistics for ahunter, maybe the military has one. If anyone out there has a favorite book onany of these subjects I would love to hear about it. I believe I have got most of my knowledge from American Rifleman, OutdoorLife, ML Guns and Shooting and of course the web.
Chap Gleason

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

For those who might be interested, here is a good link on military bullet wound patterns. Check out the M193 5.56mm round. Fackler is the foremost wound ballistics person in the world today.

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Been hunting for a while and no matter how good the shot, they still manage to run off. Sometimes they go on for what seems like forever.

When I harvest game, I always want get the clean shot -if possible -under ideal conditions. But this is not always the case. So I always load up the second shot as soon as possible if a second shot is needed. That is how I practise and it works for me. The idea of taking the time to get that wet patch out of a baggy and swabbing down the bore and then using a dry patch to get out the moisture and then loading the bore would be nice if the game would cooperate.

I don't want to sound harsh, just practible. Under ideal conditions I would love to swab the bore between shots. I just don't think this is a realistic idea or practise.

But this being said, it is all IMHO! ;)

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Sight in and fire atleast 2 shots without swabbing. You need to know how that barrel will react without the swabbing. You can use the biggest bullet you can find, but if its not placed right and you need a quick follow up shot, you need to know where that 2nd bullet will go with a dirty bore. Always prepair for the worse and ready yourself incase you ever get caught up in that situation.

After i take the first shot, im reloading ASAP. I always hear my brother saying, hes down! You dont need to reload! I prefer to be on the safe side and know that if i need another shot, its ready and know where it will shoot with a dirty barrel.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

I agree with the last couple of posts that also want to know how the second and maybe third shot will react without a swab between. I hunt elk not deer. Elk do not go "boom flop"; or at least the last three I shot did not. I also hunt alone and do not want the big animals to wander to the bottom of the next ravine to die. I try to hit them at least twice with hopes of stopping them within 100 yards or less. The last one with two good hits and both lungs, and a partial liver hitwent at least a quarter mile and I had to head shoot her at that time to drop the animal. Sometimes they do not know they are dead. I am working on getting a White to shoot heavy conicals. I finally found one and am working on the second one just because I can't stop buying nice rifles. The White seems to be the elk answer. My Omega shoots 300gr. bullets but they are not heavy enough for me based on the last couple of results.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

If the only way you can get consistent accuracy from a rifle is by swabbing between shots, I think when hunting I would still swab. Granted, there are rifles out there that shoot on a clean barrel and even on a fowled barrel close enough that it makes little or no difference. But if your rifle is not one of them, like my Knight Disc... you have a problem. I would take that few minutes of time to swab it. Give yourself time to calm down, think out your last shot and what happened, decide on your new direction of travel, note landmarks, etc as you swab and reload. For now you know the second shotshould be as accurate as the first was. As for damp patches, a simple zip lock bag with them in, is easy to carry. Snap a rubber band in the middle, one side damp, one side dry. After all it is not like you need to carry a hundred of them.

Here is my outlook on this. Let us say you shoot and do not score what might be considered a great hit. The deer/elk/woodchuck/ what ever runs off. Most hunters I grew up with used to tell me, do not chase right after them. Give them time to react to the hit. But in your case, you shove another bullet down the barrel knowing there is a chance for that load not to be as accurate as your first. So your going after a wounded animal that will be in flight mode and probably be watching for danger, your shot might be a moving shot at the animal, maybe even some distance to it. And you're not sure of your rifle's accuracy, all because you would not take a few minutes to calm down and swab the barrel? I guess I disagree.

Now if you can work up a load that shoots as well shot to shot, then by all means reload ASAP. But if your rifle is one of them that is not of that breed, you have to consider your options.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

jt 6

Reading thoughtcayugad's last entry I do not know if you can get any straigter answer than he is giving you.

This statement applies to most of my guns but I still damp patch the barrel after each shot. I can tell and most good hunters can tell what kind of shot they got on an animal and when I am confident there really is no hurry - I also know if I needed to load a quick second shot without patching - I know I could and it would be very close to sight in...

Perfect statement....

Believe this one.... the only time I take a rapid quick second shot is when I may have wounded the animal and it is right there on the ground struggling - then I will quick load and finish the dispatch.

Another reason I damp patch after a shot is (and this is a no-no to a lot of people) I do not pull or shoot out a load at the end of the day. I am using T7 and it is the least corrosive of all the synthetics that I might use - so I do leave loads in from day-to-day or even a week. Another no-no - I do not strip clean the gun until the end of the season in most circumstances, unless I have subjected it to so really bad weather and even then I am not in to big of a hurry because i do have a very very light coat of gun oil in the bore to protect it from rusting either from condensation or moisture from outside.

So my general rule is I always shoot a relatively clean barrel 99% of the time just as it is when I sight it in...

just my thoughts...

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

As posted on another thread, my Optima likes a dirty bore. My first shot out of clean bore can go anywhere. If I don't swab for 3 or 4 shots, they are almost all touching. How fouled does a bore get by shooting off a couple primers? Does this produce any residue?

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Primers produce a little fowling, but with the new primers, I doubt very much. On my rifles that like to be fowled, I load up a powder charge, then slide a couple of wads on top of that and fire it off. Then swab and load the barrel. In your case, just load the barrel.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Powerbelt booklet says to foul a barrel properly, dump 20 grains of your powder into the bore and then prime and fire it without a bullet. Then load up with your normal load and bullet and its ready.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Thanks guys...I'll give it a try. Cayugad, in getting the scoped dialed in, would you still dial it in with a clean bore?

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Stupid question.....I have never fired my rifle with just powder.....what can I expect?

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

If you have no wads, shove a cotton patch down on top of the powder before you shoot it. What you get is a BOOM! some smoke and noise. The more powder the more BOOM and smoke. :D

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

My final adjustments to a scope are done the way I want to hunt and target shoot with them. When I shoot my Knight, I know the first hit will be two inches off the center of the bull. That's ok with me because I hunt on a fowled barrel. My White is the same way, first shot about an inch or more low, but the rest go into the bull. Again, I hunt on a fowled bore so that is fine. So I dial mine in on a fowled bore.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

oldrookie

I would like to add a little bit to your question.... my scopes are sighted in with the barrel in the condition it will be in when i shoot i shoot it at an animal. So in that and in my case the barrel is not clean per-say, because it has been shot and it has been damp patched - so it is somewhat fouled.

My routine is the same as my centerfires.... I shoot the gun preseason, verify that everything is a go, and then I will damp patch the barrel (field clean) but the barrel really does not undergo a bench clean until after the hunting season. Hence the barrel has always been patched cleaned and is semi-fouled for shooting whether it is shooting at the range or hunting. But again remember I am using T7 powder, I am not sure I would do the same thing shooting Pyro or real BP.

My first shot out of a "well oiled" barrel is always some what off, but a coupleof alcohol patches prior to shooting eliminates most of that problem also.

Hope this make some sort of sense...

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Sabotloader, I have been racing home after a day of shooting to break the rifle down and get it cleaned. Obviously, if you go a whole season without breaking it down, this must be a little anile on my part. I will fire some powder though before hitting targets and see what happens. Thanks for the comments. Thats what makes this forum so great for the newbie!

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

oldrookie

Remember, I am shooting T7 if you are shooting Pyro it might be prudent to clean it well.

Another thing my damp patches are regular old blue windex - it has a bit of ammonia in it which serves to dry water and speed drying in the barrel, not to mention that it is death on T7 residue, just melts the stuff. It will take 3/4 windex patches to cleanmost of the residue from your barrel, then two dry patches and then a very lightly oiled, and I mean lightly oiled patch down the barrel, then a dry patch and your barrel will be good for the duration. Your barrel is still acutually fouled a bit but not heavily. Enough that your accuracy will remain the same.

Also, I do not remove the breech plug, I am a wrapper - I wrap the plug in teflon tape and it is good for thewhole season no matter how much I shoot.

The one thing that can change all of this is if I get the interior of the barrel really wet.... if I contaminate a load with rain or snow - then I will strip clean it and start over, because of rust not fouling.

I use this same procedure with stainless and blued barrels... I really believe the cleaning qualities of windex allow me to get away with this. Reminder the gun is never put away or stored any length of time on a fully fouled barrel, it would have to be damp patched and dryed.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Sabotloader, I have been using the clear windex. I think it has vinegar in it....not sure about the ammonia. I have been using the 777 pellets but will cross over to powder once I figure out what I need to measure it and pour it....lol. Your right, a couple of swipes with the windex patches and the dry one simply comes out grey. I thought that was pretty good just swabbing.

I learned the wrapping thing from you. I have been using the plumbers tape since day-1 and can break the plug loose with one hand.

I'll remember the fouled barrel routine as I get closer to hunting season. As stated earlier, my Optima does not like a clean bore but I am sure there is a fine line when it becomes too fouled.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

oldrookie

You are correct.... but regular windex with amonia is, I beleive a bter cleaning and drying agent - ammonia displaces water and dry rapidly. Ammonia agressively attacks the residues both T7 and polymere if there is any.... it will not harm your barrel... as some people think.. it is not straight ammonia...

Regular Windex is not near as potent as Butches Bore Shine.... just fyi

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Thanks cayugad for the above suggestion. I did shoot 30g of 777 and a patch to foul my barrel. Just as you said, BOOM smoke and a patch on fire came out the barrel. The range was full and I think they thought I was nuts! They didnt put me in time out though!

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

I swab with Butch's BLACK POWDER Bore Shine between shots, and love it. Thestuff labeled "Black Powder" isnot the same as regular Butch's Bore Shine. I don't believe the BP stuff has any ammonia. It's almost odor free, with a very, veryslight smell that reminds me of shampoo.

I use onefairly damp patch, in and out once on each side, followed by two dry patches. The second side of the second dry patch comes out almost perfectly clean.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

OldRookie
You can buy a TC graduated powder meaure for about $5 or any brand, also buy some of these powder holders to put loose in at here: http://www.rmcsports.com

Click "on line catalog" then "EZ Speed Loaders on LHS".

I bought 50 of these and I have 10 for each of my ML guns (10 extra for another gun). I premeasure the loads in my garage and store them in each of these. I mark each set of the 10 with what gun I am shooting them in.

I find carrying loose power in normal speed loaders messy as the loose powder gets between the sabot and bullet, so these little tubes are really nice. Some folks use film canisters, or Vet needle holders, that is a low cost way to go if you can find someone who has a lot of those things. These tubesare about $1 each, so that will not break you.
Chap Gleason

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Well, that's what I do. I have two hawken-type rifles with slow-twist barrels that both shoot Maxi-Balls very accurately with NO cleaning between shots - one using Triple 7, and the other using ClearShot.

RE: Sighting in for Hunting?
 

Well there is lots of good info in the posts from you guys. My final thoughts after a few years of hunting with the loader. Ihave been sighting in my gun as I would with a rifle by shooting 3 shots then cleaning. Over the past 3 years I have been shooting 777 and remington clean shot primers in my Omega. The 3 shot groups are together with no flyers. Which I consider the most imortant part of all this.I do see slight change starting at 4 but nothing to be alarmed at.Still no flyers but a wider group. Where I do see a significant change is from 8 shot and up. Obviously we are not going to shoot that many times at an animal. I am sighting in at ranges from 50 to 125 yards. I average 100-125 shots on the range prior to the season. So for me it is no swap after every shot at practice as I would duringhunting season. I alsoclean my gun after every shooting session and I start the next day of hunting with a fresh load.I love to seee the sparks fly at dusk when ending the day in the woods.Thanks for all the great discussion.