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Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
A friend of mine has one of these, and I was wondering, are these any good over black powder? His is a Savage. I personaly was thinking of getting a black powder muzzleloader, but what are the cons of a smokeless powder muzzleloader?
In the meantime if someone asks me what kind of muzzleloader I would like to get I'll tell them, "T/C Encore .50 cal. Black Powder". |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
This question should be asked in the muzzleloading forum.
In my opinion though, if you want to use smokeless powder, take your 308. The ballistics are much better too. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
might want to check regs before you buy a smokeless powder "muzzleloader". I know they aren't legal here.
The TC Encore is a great choice. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
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RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Actually I have nothing against the smokeless powder shooters. They are just not for me. If they are legal in your state, as they are in Wisconsin and that is what you want to hunt with, then do so. As much as the idea of smokeless powder is to some, they are still a muzzleloader.
I do not own one. I have no intention of owning one. But if someone wanted to give me one, you can bet I would shoot the devil out of it. What are the cons.. my understanding is the rifle required a vent liner that needs to be replaced every so often. When would depend on the brand of vent liner as I am told there are after market ones. Granted with the right powder and projectile they can get some real impressive ballistics, but then so can an inline with three pellets and the right projectile. I really do not know enough about the smokeless muzzleloader to say yea, or nae to them. There are other places and forums, where this is a very popular and well liked rifle. They are accurate, hard hitting, not a rush to clean them, there are some real advantages to them. But I would miss the smoke, and stink of the other kind of muzzleloader. My understanding is, a Savage can shoot Triple Se7en powder and some of the others as well. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: retrieverman This question should be asked in the muzzleloading forum. In my opinion though, if you want to use smokeless powder, take your 308. The ballistics are much better too. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: Dalkeith How do you get to another section in this? I went back to the home site and the only one related to muzzleloaders is this one as far as I can find. Personally I don't care what gets posted here but I was just curious that I might be missing another section of talk. If the smokeless was legal in Arizona I would haveat least one muzzleloader that would shoot it. showPicture("4/1/2007 4:42:07 AM",0,0,0,0,98,0,1)  This is for the sale of Muzzleloaders and not a discussion forum!:D:D:D:D |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: younggun243 A friend of mine has one of these, and I was wondering, are these any good over black powder? His is a Savage. I personaly was thinking of getting a black powder muzzleloader, but what are the cons of a smokeless powder muzzleloader? In the meantime if someone asks me what kind of muzzleloader I would like to get I'll tell them, "T/C Encore .50 cal. Black Powder". 1) NY and VA now both allow Smokeless Powerer MLers (VA just did this year, NY didn't care since there were shotgun and ML only) 2) Smokeless powder gives you and extra 75-100 yards effective range (most people do not know this as the big difference) 3) I intend/hope to go over completely from CF to MLers for all hunting at some point in the future. I would use the Smokeless ML in CF season. I took the scope off my Disc, so that is now my short range ML. I have a 3x9 Elite 3200 Bushnell on my Omega, so that is my 100-150 yard gun. The smokeless is my 200 to 250 yard gun, with either Knight Red Hots (bought them) or TC ShockWaves (have them also). I have not selected powder yet, but have bought scales and everything I need. Part of this for >>me<< is just to gain understanding of hand loading and ballistics and bullet performance more than it is to shoot smokeless. The real reasons to go smokeless are 1) no cleaning after firing 2) extra range 3) a bit cheaper on powder per shot since smokeless uses about 1/2 of the powder to get equivalent energy (43.5g smokeless for example). I don't recommend this to everyone as the only ML to buy, but just my way to get a bit of diversity into my hunting/shooting and learn some new things. Chap Gleason Va |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
The savage (factory) is the most powerful,accurate,hardest hitting
ML out there,yes I have one. But you wanted to know the cons,so with that,you need a powder scale, it doesn't shoot conicals with smokeless, it doesn't do BP very well, Its not designed to take the bolt apart (for BP). The plastic stock is crap. Barrel needs to cool down between shots. They are not legal with smokeless in a no.of states. Here in Wi. they are legal but we can only use a 1X scope so there is no real advantage except you don't have to clean it. With smokeless and sabots it beats any smoker, but with conicals and smoke there are a lot better ones. RC |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: younggun243 A friend of mine has one of these, and I was wondering, are these any good over black powder? His is a Savage. I personaly was thinking of getting a black powder muzzleloader, but what are the cons of a smokeless powder muzzleloader? In the meantime if someone asks me what kind of muzzleloader I would like to get I'll tell them, "T/C Encore .50 cal. Black Powder". |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
I have had my savage 10ML-II for the past couple of years and it is fantastic. It is very accurate and you can work up a load topush as 250 grn bullet2,600-2,900 fps and achieve moa out to 300 yards. Some states do have the use of smokeless during ML season as illegal. Minnesota made it illegal last year, but current legislation going through to make it legal again, as some how the change was snuck through without anyone knowing/stating who or how it got changed.
The following is a great site on the savage 10ML-II and smokeless ML in general, as there are others. http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi? |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Cons? 1) To some the need of a powder scale, unless you use 5744 and then you can scoop, BUT I use a scale for my smokers and weigh out every load... so not really a con for me. 2) The vent liners can be a con... they wear, you can get hardened vents or get the plug modified to decrease wear on the vent. 3) The stigma of hunting with a smokeless ML... not a con for me because I could care less about that. 4) The Savage is a heavy ML... 10-11 lbs with scope. Not a problem for those who stand hunt. 5) Plastic stock is flimsy... laminate stock is at least a pound heavier.
Pros? 1) I can see what I shoot immediately... this year I actually saw the hair fly when I shot a buck with the 10ML2 and most important I saw where he dropped when he ran directly away from me where smoke would have obscured it. 2) I have a Max Point Blank Range of 200 yds for a 6 inch Kill Zone. I just point and shoot at anything 200 or under and do not have to worry about compensating. 3) Can be cheaper to shoot then the avg ML. I use 65gn of IMR4198, Harvester black sabot, and 300gn XTP. Cheap to shoot and effective on game. 4) Clean up is a snap. Toughest part is the plug... should drill out the carbon build up on a regular basis. 5) Can go to a blued barrel with greater confidence. You are not using the more corrosive black powder and BP subs. 6) The Accutrigger on the Savage is one of the better if not the best trigger you will find on a stock ML. 7) The action seals out blowback and the bolt holds and extracts the 209 primer better than most any ML on the market. 8) Rifle grade steal is used for the barrel. This is a safe ML. 9) One of the most accurate ML's I have ever owned and that is a stock (no mods) 10ML2 with the tupperware stock... MOA at 100 yds consistently. I could probably think of more to say but that covers it for now... |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: Flatland Hunter Cons? 1) To some the need of a powder scale, unless you use 5744 and then you can scoop, BUT I use a scale for my smokers and weigh out every load... so not really a con for me. 2) The vent liners can be a con... they wear, you can get hardened vents or get the plug modified to decrease wear on the vent. 3) The stigma of hunting with a smokeless ML... not a con for me because I could care less about that. 4) The Savage is a heavy ML... 10-11 lbs with scope. Not a problem for those who stand hunt. 5) Plastic stock is flimsy... laminate stock is at least a pound heavier. Pros? 1) I can see what I shoot immediately... this year I actually saw the hair fly when I shot a buck with the 10ML2 and most important I saw where he dropped when he ran directly away from me where smoke would have obscured it. 2) I have a Max Point Blank Range of 200 yds for a 6 inch Kill Zone. I just point and shoot at anything 200 or under and do not have to worry about compensating. 3) Can be cheaper to shoot then the avg ML. I use 60gn of IMR4198, Harvester black sabot, and 300gn XTP. Cheap to shoot and effective on game. 4) Clean up is a snap. Toughest part is the plug... should drill out the carbon build up on a regular basis. 5) Can go to a blued barrel with greater confidence. You are not using the more corrosive black powder and BP subs. 6) The Accutrigger on the Savage is one of the better if not the best trigger you will find on a stock ML. 7) The action seals out blowback and the bolt holds and extracts the 209 primer better than most any ML on the market. 8) Rifle grade steal is used for the barrel. This is a safe ML. 9) One of the most accurate ML's I have ever owned and that is a stock (no mods) 10ML2 with the tupperware stock... MOA at 100 yds consistently. I could probably think of more to say but that covers it for now... |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Just got done checking on MN house bill HF 1116 and as of 4/2/07 it is again legal to use smokeless powder during ML season in MN. Take that you sneaky traditional MLer's trying to scam good folk! ;):D
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RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
you can still shoot blackpowder/ subs in the savage so its a real high tech muzzleloader that lets you shoot everything from subs to smokeless. Would i use it if i could? No. why? I like the smoke and smell of a muzzleloader.
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RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: frontier gander you can still shoot blackpowder/ subs in the savage so its a real high tech muzzleloader that lets you shoot everything from subs to smokeless. Would i use it if i could? No. why? I like the smoke and smell of a muzzleloader. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: younggun243 A friend of mine has one of these, and I was wondering, are these any good over black powder? His is a Savage. I personaly was thinking of getting a black powder muzzleloader, but what are the cons of a smokeless powder muzzleloader? In the meantime if someone asks me what kind of muzzleloader I would like to get I'll tell them, "T/C Encore .50 cal. Black Powder". When you compare the T/C Encore to the Savage, the Savage will do anything that the T/Cis capable of doingperformance wise, but the T/C is not able and willnever be a matchfor the Savage's performance capabilities. As far as, smokeless vs real BP, it is no contest, smokeless is the winner hands down, performance wise. It is safer to ship and store, less violatile, produces better performance, less recoil, and produces that better performance at a fraction of the cost. Forgot something important. In TN the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloader season is perfectly legal. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
I just got my Savage muzzleloader. I can see why people sing it's praises. There really isn't anything odd or mystical about it, other than it's way overbuilt to handle smokeless pressures. You get 150 grain triple 7 pellet load velocities with about half the recoil. That's a big deal for me. The trigger is adjustable-another plus. I don't mind the plastic stock on mine. It's a hunting gun and I won't cry if I put a scratch on it. My only real complaint of the gun is it's overall size. But then again, I'm small person and I don't think it'll bother the average size guy. I have both the Encore and a Savage and I say...get the Savage;)
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RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Younggun243 - your profile says alot about your question. You are a life member in the forums and presumably you like a .243. I notice you've spent time on the gun section and deer hunting. Flat and fast may be where you are and looking for a challenge. Smokeless may well be a great place to start. If it is legal in your state to hunt with and that's important to you, you could get one and try both smokeless and smokeful. Maybe after a few years you'd want another challenge and go to a slow twist roundball gun or a flintlock.
I'm pretty much at the other end of things. I've been living in a "cave" (with a sidelock, oh, and a beautiful wife), depending on woodsmanship and Lady Luck to make it happen; and she has. I've been looking for a different challenge. In my case, seeing just how much performance can be achieved with sidelocks. So far, a fast twist barrel and fiber optic sights have been added, and, so far, I'm impressed and feeling only a little bit guilty. Maybe one day you and I meet, having found our way to the weapon which most reflects the journey taken. I won't be surprised, if after all the searching and shooting and target punching we hold similar weapons. One with a sliver of stone in its jaws. Good luck with your quest! |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Had to edit my post... I put 60gn of 4198 and I am using 65gn. I also put a Sims recoil pad on it... really works.
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RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Thanks guys, this is all alot of food for thought, but it'll help me for sure later.
BTW, yeoman, I actually use a .308, I chose the username before I got a gun, and I considered the .243. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Younggun -
By varying the bullet/sabot/powder in the Savage smokeless you could have the 308, 270 and 243 all in one gun! Well, maybe at 1/3 the yardages. ;) |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: yeoman Younggun - By varying the bullet/sabot/powder in the Savage smokeless you could have the 308, 270 and 243 all in one gun! Well, maybe at 1/3 the yardages. ;) http://www.savagearms.com/images/pdf/manuals/MLII_loads.pdf |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Own smoked and a smokeless (savage) as well, I like em all:D! Last year when it became time to add a new ML to my life I was between a TC Encore and the Savage. I bought the Savage based on experience with it, different then the other inlines I alreadyhad and ultimately cost of intial investment/ownership. I shoot the bee geez out of it last year and had a blast doing it. Right out of the box with a proven load in several other Savage owners guns I put up -1" at 100 group and ended up with 3 combos that would print 1" or better. So you could say i have been pleased with my decision to buy a 10II vs an encore. I used it to harvest 2 deer last fall with the same result - bang FLOP. I also used my ole faithful to harvest 1 deer with T7 powder and 240xtp - bang-hopple-flop. So both styles are effective on game and both shoot very well for me.
To the pros and cons from my standpoint: PRO > Cost of ownership > Cleaning Ease > Real "mag velocities" with accuracy and less felt recoil. Legit 200 plus gun, achieving 2300fps with next to no push is easily obtainable with 2 of the book loads. Branching out further can show + with slower powders"non book" loads that produce less peak pressure (safe). > Accuracy > Self Adjustable Trigger > Sealed breech - zero blow back on mine > Overbuilt/Safe CON > Weight (10+ scoped) > Tupperware stock (flimsy but functional - I own a Syth/SS combo) > Laminate stock - Heavy > Ventliner (factory worked flawless for 50-70 shots but then need replacement, RW's expensivebut improved life, PR's more reasonable/improved life over Savage (100+)&modified breech plug (drill bushing), seems the way to go if you plan on shooting lots (have one on order as we speak) > Bolt release ( requires the rear action screw to be released to remove, can cause POI shifts. I haven't seen this problem as i torque to the exact same specs each time. Other options are available such as an ez tool rachet or mods) > Reloading knowledge and equipment required - scale, powder trickler andpowder funnel. > OOPs forgot with the speeds you can hurl bullets out of the savage one may need to put more consideration intobullet construction,asthey aren't all made for the higherMV's that can be acheived with smokeless. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM Own smoked and a smokeless (savage) as well, I like em all:D! Last year when it became time to add a new ML to my life I was between a TC Encore and the Savage. I bought the Savage based on experience with it, different then the other inlines I alreadyhad and ultimately cost of intial investment/ownership. I shoot the bee geez out of it last year and had a blast doing it. Right out of the box with a proven load in several other Savage owners guns I put up -1" at 100 group and ended up with 3 combos that would print 1" or better. So you could say i have been pleased with my decision to buy a 10II vs an encore. I used it to harvest 2 deer last fall with the same result - bang FLOP. I also used my ole faithful to harvest 1 deer with T7 powder and 240xtp - bang-hopple-flop. So both styles are effective on game and both shoot very well for me. To the pros and cons from my standpoint: PRO > Cost of ownership > Cleaning Ease > Real "mag velocities" with accuracy and less felt recoil. Legit 200 plus gun, achieving 2300fps with next to no push is easily obtainable with 2 of the book loads. Branching out further can show + with slower powders"non book" loads that produce less peak pressure (safe). > Accuracy > Self Adjustable Trigger > Sealed breech - zero blow back on mine > Overbuilt/Safe CON > Weight (10+ scoped) > Tupperware stock (flimsy but functional - I own a Syth/SS combo) > Laminate stock - Heavy > Ventliner (factory worked flawless for 50-70 shots but then need replacement, RW's expensivebut improved life, PR's more reasonable/improved life over Savage (100+)&modified breech plug (drill bushing), seems the way to go if you plan on shooting lots (have one on order as we speak) > Bolt release ( requires the rear action screw to be released to remove, can cause POI shifts. I haven't seen this problem as i torque to the exact same specs each time. Other options are available such as an ez tool rachet or mods) > Reloading knowledge and equipment required - scale, powder trickler andpowder funnel. > OOPs forgot with the speeds you can hurl bullets out of the savage one may need to put more consideration intobullet construction,asthey aren't all made for the higherMV's that can be acheived with smokeless. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
I have been shooting a savage since they came out,have had 3 but down to one now,planning on getting one with the thumb hole stock when they come out.I have went through a few scopes with the savage because of shooting some heavy loads in it.I think it was 3 years (maybe 4 ) I put 1500 + sst's and SW through 2 savages,I had gotten 500 seconds at a very good price but had to buy the rest in boxes of 15 and 20's,so the cost wasn't small.
Year before last I set up a spare scope in case something happened to the one on the rifle during the hunting season.This past year went to the range to check the savage out a week before season opened,and the burris signature let me down,had a lepould 4x12 blisti-plexallready set up so I put it on and shot one at 300 yds,had to give it a couple clicks before getting the bullet in the circle(pic below) after that I shot one at 100 yds and it was touching a one inch dot at 9 o'clock. Went to deer camp the next week shot 3 deer one at 170 yds,one at 200 yds and one at 230 yds.It was up in feb before I got a chance (or took the time to empty it) so I could clean it,shot 3 shots into 1 and 1/4 in at 200 yds.The sec pic is unloading after year before lastdeer season,really got lucky there are 2 bullets through that one hole,cannot tell it by looking at front but can see a ffigure 8 comeing out the other side,and wittnessed by 3 other guys at the range.This was after me taking 4 deer from 50 to 234yds,3 brothers taking deer from 100 to 225 yds and a friend taking one at 100 yds with my rifle,and useing my stand. I don't know if 1-shot remembers (we posted back and forth on the big greenboard and e-mailtrying to get it to shoot smokless)or not but the first savage I had ML1 would not shoot smokless good enough for me to hunt with at all,think he figured out something was wrong with the barrel,I didn't send it back because it shot clean shot and pyro with xtpsso well.Not joking that thing would drive tacks at 100 yds,I let the fellow shoot it before he bought it and he couldn't believe he had just shot a one hole group at 100 yds with a muzzleloader.   Another 300yd group with the savage  Best target pic with the savage,one at 160 yds one at 200 yds  |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman Excellent post Skeeting_10ML! I havea Savage Syth/SS combo on order, but was not aware of the bolt release issue, can you send me a URL for this? I would also like to know what powder, bulletand powder weight charge your using. Thanks. Chap Gleason Solutions: 1) Ez-Tool RV allows you to remove the breech without releasing the bolt or rear action screw. (cost $40.00) Link:http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/website/Pocampo/eztool.html 2) Add 3rd pillar/bed (In essence become the rear action screw via the front trigger screw location.The rear action screw will continuebeing your bolt stopbut will no longereffect mating of the action, etc. (cost subject to gunsmith) 3) Torque to the same specs with inch/lb gunsmith driver. (cost$50) BTW I torque mine to 35 "/lbs front and 25 "/lbs rear. 4) Don't worry about it, just make sure to verify and adjust POI prior to hunt. If smokeless powder is the propellant no worry about leaving it till after season. I left mine from end of Sept till Dec without doing anything but normal weather maint. The last day of the 06' Ml season i took my deer in -20's (celsuis) temperatures and hit him right where I expected too. As far as loads I found IMR 4759SR to be a great propellant for 250 & 300 class bullets in my rifle(actually it seems to be the case in many 10II's). 42-45grs but I settled on 43.5gr IMR4759, 209W primer &250gr SST with MMP HPH24 sabot, it would shoot sub MOA all day long. I also had 1" groups using same components and VVN110 powder 43-45grs, my best was 43gr where it would consistently print 1" area. 58-60gr of VVN120 showed promise with 300 grain bullets. RL7 was accurate, fastbut dirty, pours poor and recoil is pretty healthy at 70ish gr under 250gr bullet. I plan to play more with 300 class bullets this year and as result will be working with H4198 as well. My hopes is to find a similar shooting load around 2300fps thatI can use for elk rifle season this fall if I don't get during archery. Here is a link to a goodsource of savage info, check it out http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi Hope it helps, enjoy!!!:D |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Skeeter_7mm, Thanks for the info on the bolt, I will read up on that and make a choise as to how to handle it. Thanks for the load info also. I plan on using the 300g SW or the Knight Red Hot 300g which are made by Barnes. I am planning on hunting elk in Colorado in 2008 with the gun, already have paid my downpayment and did the preference point deal.
I will print your post to PDF and keep it in my "Savage Folder". Thanks again for your help. Chap Gleason Va |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
AnytimeI can I am glad to lend a hand.
Since your looking for 08' elk and in the USA may want to think about barnes original 300 gr. .458" xpb bullets, they make a limited once a year run and from what i have heard they are terrific performers in the Savage. Being in Canada it isn't a reality for me to try them so I am stuck with other choices[&:]. BTW their is afella who lives in Ont. Canada and makes a 300gr bullet that also has been getting good reviews, he is a member and posts on Dougs board (check under the trade blanket section). I shot upmy supply of 300gr SW last year under VVN110, VV120 & IMR 4759. With the same HPH24 sabot they performed well with the later 2 powders. With N110 has been a bear for me about the only way i can get consistent groups with it is 43gr under .451 250 xtp which is not the most effecient at 200 and beyond. Though cost effective;). I picked up a pile of 300gr SST at a gun show so I'll see how they fair, I know the 250grshoots lights out in mine and othersI know 10II's. If your wanting to pretty much shoot 300 class bullets I'd suggest IMR4759SR (for your book powder) and then either (58-63) VVN120 or H4198(64-68). VV is so darn unpredictable with regards to availability in my neck of the woods thus I am going to try the ever stocked Hodgdon powders. I know in my rifle the N120 can be made to achieve my underlying premise so I will be saving the little better then 1/2a canI have for the event I am up against the wall and then have to anty up to have to mail order it for the future. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM AnytimeI can I am glad to lend a hand. Since your looking for 08' elk and in the USA may want to think about barnes original 300 gr. .458" xpb bullets, they make a limited once a year run and from what i have heard they are terrific performers in the Savage. Being in Canada it isn't a reality for me to try them so I am stuck with other choices[&:]. BTW their is afella who lives in Ont. Canada and makes a 300gr bullet that also has been getting good reviews, he is a member and posts on Dougs board (check under the trade blanket section). I shot upmy supply of 300gr SW last year under VVN110, VV120 & IMR 4759. With the same HPH24 sabot they performed well with the later 2 powders. With N110 has been a bear for me about the only way i can get consistent groups with it is 43gr under .451 250 xtp which is not the most effecient at 200 and beyond. Though cost effective;). I picked up a pile of 300gr SST at a gun show so I'll see how they fair, I know the 250grshoots lights out in mine and othersI know 10II's. If your wanting to pretty much shoot 300 class bullets I'd suggest IMR4759SR (for your book powder) and then either (58-63) VVN120 or H4198(64-68). VV is so darn unpredictable with regards to availability in my neck of the woods thus I am going to try the ever stocked Hodgdon powders. I know in my rifle the N120 can be made to achieve my underlying premise so I will be saving the little better then 1/2a canI have for the event I am up against the wall and then have to anty up to have to mail order it for the future. |
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Had my savage out to the range this past Saturday. I finally mounted a scope on it and ended up right at 1.5" @ 100 yards within 9 shots. I was using 44 grns or 4759 pushing 250 SST's. I did not have the camera with, but will bring it when I get a chance to push her out to 200 yards.
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