shot "groups"
 

The 100 yd accuracy post leaves me with many questions.

1) What is a group?

There are posts of 3 shots groups that are awesome. How much do they mean? I shotseveral 3 shot 3" @ 100 groups withmy SCOPED1:66 CVA and Sabertooths, which lead me to believe it might be reasonably easy to shoot a 6 shot group on a 6" circle at that distance. Boy was I mistaken. I've come to the conclusion that a3 shot "group" only has weight if it is repeatable with consistency. Mine wasn't. A 5 shot group, now that is convincing. Someone knows how to calculate the odds, and suffice it to saymay not a little less than twice as difficult but possibly a lot more difficult, andyou would need to know the liklihood (consistency)of shooting the 3" 3 shot group to determine it.

2) What is consistency?

If a 3" 3 shot group is achievable, how often and in how many attemptsforit tofit your definition of consistent? To me, if it occurs 50% of the time, it is occasional, 2/3 repeatable and3/3 consistent.

3) What is a group worth when also "on target"?

If a gun can produce a 3 shot 3" group "consistently" at a given distance, that's, maybe,great. If the mean point of impact is 5" from point of aim, I'm not so sure. One can argue that it's simply a question of sight/scope adjustment to move that group on target. I don't witness that happening often. At least, I haven't seen many posts of before and after the process. I know in competition group sizemay be all that matters, but when there's an animal on the receiving end of the bullet, we should demand more than that from ourselves.

Anyhow, it was strange reading the "100 yard accurracy" with all its references to "groups", frequently, without reference to the number of shots in the group, the consistency of shooting that group, or the relative location of the "group" to a point of aim.

Seems there should be an established set of definitions.

If you had to establish a standard, what would you call a "shot group"?

RE: shot "groups"
 

Since weather like wind and light conditions as well as the type rest and the capabilities of the shooter all enter into ityour 3/3 can not really apply.
A lot of us use and talk about 3 shot groups they are the most commen when narrowing options to fine the best load.
Weather it is a good group or not may depend on iron sights or not, the type of gun Hawken ,inline or kentucky rifle. I consider 3 inches a good group for my iron sighted Hawken with PRB,its awful for my Omega with one of the load that will shoot under 1.5 inches with 5 shots.
Much of this is relative to the context it is in. Lee

RE: shot "groups"
 

A single great 3 shot group may not be very meaningful - it could be nothing more than a fluke event. Repeatable performance with similar groups is of much more value. Such groups indicate not only the rifle's capabilities but also the performance of load components and consistency of the shooter/loader.

Adding shots 4 and 5 does indeed make life difficult. :) Being used to firing three for group, going for those extra two has shattered my nerves at times. I'vealso found it best not to even look at the group until you are finished. Having a spotter behind you saying things like, "oh man, that'slooking great" or "holy chit!" or "put the next one with those and you've hit a homer" doesn't help in the least. :D


Above target is an example where I lost my mind after the third shot. Fifth shot was an "I no longer care" hurried shot.

Here are some examples that bespeak consistent accuracy


A mixture of ranges from 75 to 220 yards, mixture ofloads used, and three different shooters. Ed Mehlig's targets are those in simple black and white - his vary from 75 to 118 yards and from 3 to 8 shots in a group. Ed is one heck of a shot!

Besides all that, I just like posting that big boolits picture. :D

RE: shot "groups"
 

lem -

"Conditions" wouldn't have a lot of effect on 3/3 would they? Conditions would affect POI vs POA. Talking 3 shot groups without reference to consistency still leaves the potential for a large "luck" factor.

Goodexample. You mentioned two "groups" without reference to distance, consistency and in one instance, number of shots. Let's assume you meant 100 yds. following my thread. Are the 3 inch Hawken groups 3 shot or 5? Howconsistently can you repeat either "group" with the repective gun? Without knowing those details it's information without much value.

RE: shot "groups"
 

Not sure that good groups translate well to deceased game animals. Know a guy who kills at least one elk, and four or five deer every year with his Knight. He comes to the range oncein the fall and shoots it a time or two. If the bullet hits withintwo orthree inches of the three inch bullseye he packs it in and goes home. He is a superb hunter.

RE: shot "groups"
 

This is a good example of how adding just a single additional shot then three, can change the whole group. Granted now this is at 50 yards and with a scope off a single bag rest. I was testing Black Mag3 and some conicals in the White. But see what happens when you are thinking ... the first three are so good, lets flop a couple more in there. Like Underclocked said, for some reason your mind blows it...

I now shoot five shot groups when checking anything. Five shots might give me a bigger spread, but I really do not care. It also tells me what the rifle is more apt to do.

RE: shot "groups"
 

Cayugad -

Don't you ever get an itch to sell one of those guns? That one seems to work ok.:)

RE: shot "groups"
 

I've gave a few away this year to family, but I'd never sell them. I tried to once. I sat down and went through the rack trying to decide which rifles would stay and go, trouble is, I always found a reason I wanted the rifle to stay. :D Besides they look nice on the wall.

RE: shot "groups"
 

If the point of impact is where you expect it to be and your first shot is impacting ontarget where you expect it to be, then the rest is an exercise in confidence. imo

Personally I'm more concerned on where my first shot lands in the group. It is the first shot that has to count.

On the target I posted, the first shot was at 50 yds, the second was at 100 and I had to adjust my scope for POI. Shots 3,4,5,6,7 were confirmation shots and I guess you could say my "Confidence" shots. The spread is just under 2 inches for all five. Not many deer, bear or moose are going to walk away from that group or most importantly, shot # 3.:)

RE: shot "groups"
 

Huntaway -

Very good point about the first shot on game.

As an archer, I've often wondered if the best practice might be shooting just one arrow. Spend 10 minutes waiting; studying the target....and finally, let go just one arrow.

RE: shot "groups"
 

I shoot a 3-shot group when I practice with my bow..I shoot 1from 10yrds, 1 from 20yrds, and 1 from 30yrds. I have my arrows numbered 1,2,3 so I know which is which. Maybe this would be a good exercise for the gun range also- 50 yrds, 75yrds, and 100yrds? Since it is the first shot that counts and it would allow you to more consistently practice at different ranges and better judge the shot distance.

RE: shot "groups"
 

Good idea! Shoot the 50, 75 then 100, and repeat 5 times. That'll tell you something.

RE: shot "groups"
 

Most often the problem when there is one is the man behind the gun. Lee

RE: shot "groups"
 

On the surface this would hold merit. But if you can put the first on the button at 100 with a rifle, then 50 and 75 should be academic, providing that you know your trajectory at those ranges with that particular load. They are so much more forgiving than a bow of minor variances.

RE: shot "groups"
 

I had some of those same questions before. I've basically come to my own conclusions.

I can now consistently shoot 3 or 3.5 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards. That is off a rest on a table and with open sights with my Omega.

I believe that 3 shots is a group but 5 or more is better. I now shoot mainly 3 shot groups. I have come to the belief that I can consistently shoot 3 inch groups now becauseI have done it 5 range sessions in a row with my perfect load.I am not going to say I get those groups if I cannot CONSISTENTLY achieve them.

3 shots is most certainly a group and seems to be the norm for people who shoot for group consistency.

I used to shoot the same target for10 shots or soin a row and would rarely get good groups(better than8 inches). Show me someone that can shoot 20 bullets into the same target and get a 2 inch group and I will be impressed. Very few people can do it that I am aware of.

3 shot groups are the norm but 20 shot groups are much more impressive:D

RE: shot "groups"
 

I think 2 shots is more realistic. #1 at the animal, #2 is a quick follow up shot if needed and possibly another to put it down. You'll very very rarely ever get 3 shots at one animal. You're lucky to get one shot as it is. I shot 6 shots today at a 100 yard target, over shot them all but they were all landing next to eachother. Would have been perfect if i had a 188 yard target set up way back there! But atleast i now know where to leave my sights for 200+ yards:D

RE: shot "groups"
 

gotta look on the bright side---always;)

RE: shot "groups"
 

Maybe this will answer some of your questions regarding the statistical probability. Each load, person, rifle combo has a different statistical probability.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1920039&mpage=1&key=grouping&amp ;#1920489

here is another

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1859280&mpage=1&key=probability& amp;#1860015

RE: shot "groups"
 

Pglasgow- that's it. Now help me with this.

If I can shoot a 3" 3 shot group consistently

and a 3" 3 shot group on a 6" circle 2/3 times

What will be the probability I shoot a 6 shot group in the 6" circle?

RE: shot "groups"
 

Yeoman, if you can shoot a 3" group consistently... why would you only shoot a 3" group in a 6" circle 2/3 of the time.

Seems a contradiction unless I'm missing something obvious (as usual). :)

RE: shot "groups"
 

UC -

Many of the groups we talk about and show pictures of are "off target" meaning off POA. Explanations could be:

Sight/scope alignment (physical adjustment)
Sight/scope interpretation (inconsistent eye to reticle distance, for example)

Wind
Flinch (consistent flinch)
Variation in powder measure
Ramrod pressure variations
etc...

There are things which may be consistent on a given day, but not over a string of outings. On one day, I may load 90 grains with a slight bulge to the powder measure, producing a 3" 3 shot group NW of POA. The next outing, my 90 grains is level in the measure, producing a 3" 3 shot group NE of POA. By being consistent (consistently inconsistent?), I have managed 3" groups but varying POI's. Using probability, the variability is in essence averaged. Maybe the wind would be a clearer example. From the left today and I shoot a nice tight group 5 inches right of POA. From the right next time, and the group's 3" left of POA. A statistical result would blend those elements together.

RE: shot "groups"
 

Yoeman,

If you shoot a 3" 3 shot pattern 2/3 of the time, this means that almost 88% of your shots lie in the 3" circle. I would think, given the vast majority lie in 3" circle, a very minor probability (almost zero)exists that a shot will land outside a 6" circle (target).

I am assuming pristine range conditions and the sights adjusted for group centers at POA (center of circle).

That said, in adverse wind conditions, (which doesn't take much with projectiles of low ballistic efficiciency), the patterns necessarily widen (arising from wind speed fluctuation) and POI of the group centers get shifted (arising from deflection by wind). Easily with PRB, ballets, light weight PBs, this deflection can prevent the impact on a 6" target unless a windage adjustment (sights or POA) is undertaken. In other words, in adverse wind conditions, the probability of hitting a 6" target, without adjusting for wind,can go from almost 100% to almost 0%.

I don't know if this is helping, but you can develop your own probability distribution data if you keep good records of your range time and make sure the data is not dramatically affected by windage. But more important is gaining a sense of how windage is affecting POI at the more distant part of your effectiverange. Hunting in windy conditions can change your strategy, ie where your stand is, or stalking to get the wind in line with your shot.

RE: shot "groups"
 

Pglasgow -

What I was describing was a sequence of 3 shot groups, not within a specific 3" circle, but within 3 inches of each other. The individual 3" circles, on successive outings, may be in varying places on the target. Can you find a probablility of 6/6 on a specific 6" circle from this information? I'm not sure.

RE: shot "groups"
 

**************
Added: Yoeman, I see I didn't answer the question specifically. I apologize for that. Regarding, a specific 6" circle, here is the best way tolook at it. The specific 6" circle should be centered on the POA. And yes, in virtially windless range conditions,the probability of impact in a specific6" circlecan be determined.

But for field conditions its gets more complicated due to windage. After all, we have to hunt when we can and during a specific time window, during which, we can not pick the weather.

Lets say you load with a 80 grains GOEX and a 270 BB. Lets also say that in pristine wind conditions you have found all of your POI's within 2" of POA. This would be a distribution that would most likely have most 3 shotgroups under 3" and all under 4". Speaking hypothetically of course it would depend on the actual distribution.

It is a better question while hunting to ask, "What level of crosswind has the potential of taking his shots outside of the 6" circle?" Forload andimpact distributionpreviously mentioned,as little as 4 mph will take the majority of impacts out of the 6" circle. Also, the crosswind must be less than 1.2 mph in order to for all to impact within the 6" circle. Also NO impacts will be within the 6" circle in a crosswind of 6.4 mph or greater, and having the potential to miss the intendedpoint of aimby as much as 7"
****************************

Given different range conditions that is what we want to see,specifically, a good grouping whose center is deflected as a result of the existing range condition. This of course an indication of precision, though not necessarily accurate. We like precision because it tells us we can move that precise grouping centerto the POI we want.

Even so, precise accuracy is what we are ultimately trying to achieve. We want no more than an acceptable miss from POA. That way, we can be sure the POI is close enough to the point we are aiming at to get the results we are wanting (lethally shot animal quickly dying).

RE: shot "groups"
 

"I've come to the conclusion that a3 shot "group" only has weight if it is repeatable with consistency."

You are 100% correct! One 3-shot group proves nothing - if your rifle shoots ONE good 3-shot group, it must be able to do it again and again with pretty much the same results each time, or it means nothing. What is important is the AVERAGE SIZE of a numbewr of 3-shot groups fired under the same conditions with the same load as the best one.

However, most of us tend to save the BEST group, me included!

RE: shot "groups"
 

However, most of us tend to save the BEST group, me included!

Me too!!!! I just threw out my OLD targets from before I tuned the load( I had some 8 inch groups[&:]). They weren't too impressive obviously.

But, as I said,I have shot 3 inch groups for the last 5 range sessions with my good load soI now consider myself consistent. I don't count past experiences orI would be screwed. Everything good takes time.