yeoman

The 100 yd accuracy post leaves me with many questions.

1) What is a group?

There are posts of 3 shots groups that are awesome. How much do they mean? I shotseveral 3 shot 3" @ 100 groups withmy SCOPED1:66 CVA and Sabertooths, which lead me to believe it might be reasonably easy to shoot a 6 shot group on a 6" circle at that distance. Boy was I mistaken. I've come to the conclusion that a3 shot "group" only has weight if it is repeatable with consistency. Mine wasn't. A 5 shot group, now that is convincing. Someone knows how to calculate the odds, and suffice it to saymay not a little less than twice as difficult but possibly a lot more difficult, andyou would need to know the liklihood (consistency)of shooting the 3" 3 shot group to determine it.

2) What is consistency?

If a 3" 3 shot group is achievable, how often and in how many attemptsforit tofit your definition of consistent? To me, if it occurs 50% of the time, it is occasional, 2/3 repeatable and3/3 consistent.

3) What is a group worth when also "on target"?

If a gun can produce a 3 shot 3" group "consistently" at a given distance, that's, maybe,great. If the mean point of impact is 5" from point of aim, I'm not so sure. One can argue that it's simply a question of sight/scope adjustment to move that group on target. I don't witness that happening often. At least, I haven't seen many posts of before and after the process. I know in competition group sizemay be all that matters, but when there's an animal on the receiving end of the bullet, we should demand more than that from ourselves.

Anyhow, it was strange reading the "100 yard accurracy" with all its references to "groups", frequently, without reference to the number of shots in the group, the consistency of shooting that group, or the relative location of the "group" to a point of aim.

Seems there should be an established set of definitions.

If you had to establish a standard, what would you call a "shot group"?

lemoyne

Since weather like wind and light conditions as well as the type rest and the capabilities of the shooter all enter into ityour 3/3 can not really apply.
A lot of us use and talk about 3 shot groups they are the most commen when narrowing options to fine the best load.
Weather it is a good group or not may depend on iron sights or not, the type of gun Hawken ,inline or kentucky rifle. I consider 3 inches a good group for my iron sighted Hawken with PRB,its awful for my Omega with one of the load that will shoot under 1.5 inches with 5 shots.
Much of this is relative to the context it is in. Lee

Underclocked

A single great 3 shot group may not be very meaningful - it could be nothing more than a fluke event. Repeatable performance with similar groups is of much more value. Such groups indicate not only the rifle's capabilities but also the performance of load components and consistency of the shooter/loader.

Adding shots 4 and 5 does indeed make life difficult. Being used to firing three for group, going for those extra two has shattered my nerves at times. I'vealso found it best not to even look at the group until you are finished. Having a spotter behind you saying things like, "oh man, that'slooking great" or "holy chit!" or "put the next one with those and you've hit a homer" doesn't help in the least.


Above target is an example where I lost my mind after the third shot. Fifth shot was an "I no longer care" hurried shot.

Here are some examples that bespeak consistent accuracy


A mixture of ranges from 75 to 220 yards, mixture ofloads used, and three different shooters. Ed Mehlig's targets are those in simple black and white - his vary from 75 to 118 yards and from 3 to 8 shots in a group. Ed is one heck of a shot!

Besides all that, I just like posting that big boolits picture.

yeoman

lem -

"Conditions" wouldn't have a lot of effect on 3/3 would they? Conditions would affect POI vs POA. Talking 3 shot groups without reference to consistency still leaves the potential for a large "luck" factor.

Goodexample. You mentioned two "groups" without reference to distance, consistency and in one instance, number of shots. Let's assume you meant 100 yds. following my thread. Are the 3 inch Hawken groups 3 shot or 5? Howconsistently can you repeat either "group" with the repective gun? Without knowing those details it's information without much value.

alsaqr

Not sure that good groups translate well to deceased game animals. Know a guy who kills at least one elk, and four or five deer every year with his Knight. He comes to the range oncein the fall and shoots it a time or two. If the bullet hits withintwo orthree inches of the three inch bullseye he packs it in and goes home. He is a superb hunter.

cayugad

This is a good example of how adding just a single additional shot then three, can change the whole group. Granted now this is at 50 yards and with a scope off a single bag rest. I was testing Black Mag3 and some conicals in the White. But see what happens when you are thinking ... the first three are so good, lets flop a couple more in there. Like Underclocked said, for some reason your mind blows it...

I now shoot five shot groups when checking anything. Five shots might give me a bigger spread, but I really do not care. It also tells me what the rifle is more apt to do.

yeoman

Cayugad -

Don't you ever get an itch to sell one of those guns? That one seems to work ok.

cayugad

I've gave a few away this year to family, but I'd never sell them. I tried to once. I sat down and went through the rack trying to decide which rifles would stay and go, trouble is, I always found a reason I wanted the rifle to stay. Besides they look nice on the wall.

HuntAway

If the point of impact is where you expect it to be and your first shot is impacting ontarget where you expect it to be, then the rest is an exercise in confidence. imo

Personally I'm more concerned on where my first shot lands in the group. It is the first shot that has to count.

On the target I posted, the first shot was at 50 yds, the second was at 100 and I had to adjust my scope for POI. Shots 3,4,5,6,7 were confirmation shots and I guess you could say my "Confidence" shots. The spread is just under 2 inches for all five. Not many deer, bear or moose are going to walk away from that group or most importantly, shot # 3.

yeoman

Huntaway -

Very good point about the first shot on game.

As an archer, I've often wondered if the best practice might be shooting just one arrow. Spend 10 minutes waiting; studying the target....and finally, let go just one arrow.