PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Did a little research after the responsesto my 100 yard accuracy thread and one of the articles was by Randy Wakeman and he didn't have much nice to say aboout PowerBelts. I seem to remember reading some opinions about him here a while back. What do ya'll think of him and PowerBelts in general?

www.chuckhawks.com/powerbelt_bullets.htm

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Plenty of opinions have been voiced. Do a quick search and you'll find alot of discussion over the topic. For me, I could never get them to group well out of my Encore, so I never used them for hunting.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

ever get any conical to group well?


Powerbelts are a great bullet when used properly. Thats all ive used besides a couple diff. bullets here and there. RW will pretty much put anything down if its not on his payroll.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Randy who???? :eek:

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

My own experance with them that at the loads and velocity that they will shoot accurate in my guns [I can get a 2 inch group at 100 with 150 gr RS] they blow up like a varmit bullet every time. Thats not to say that they will not work ok for somebody who can get them to shoot with 60 or 70 gr.
As far as any one who gets paid for advetising ,well lets just say there are a lot of people right here that will give you their honest opinion for nothing and have no axe to grind. Lee

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

I got 1.5 inch groups with 245gr areotips out of my CVA Wolfwith 100gr Pyrodex pellets 2 weeks ago at 50 yards, ( I know not too impressive yet) at least I plan on tuning a little more. This weekend I plan to try loose Pyrodex RS and move out to 100yds. I didn't shoot that far out last time because I had my father in law with who has been ill and the range was muddy.But if I can get the same results at 100 yds by tweeking things a little I'll be satisfied to use those Power Beltsthis fall deer hunting.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

The first thing I want to point out is it is an opinion. Opinions can change from one person to the next. What works for one does not work for another. Powerbelts are a strange projectile. Some people will have excellent results with powerbelts while the next person claims bad wound channels, no blood trails, no penetration. Why does this happen to one and not the other? After reading all the posts I can on powerbelts and shooting hundreds of them (not at any animals unfortunately) I have decided it all boils down to shot placement, and a little luck.

I also tend to think that the degree Powerbelts are pushed might have an influence on the ability of them to do what they were designed to do, as well. Pick the style of powerbelt for what you want it to do. If you want penetration, then pick something in an Aero Tip. After all, if you shoot a hollow point into a deer, you really should not be upset if the projectile expands as it is supposed to, and does not pass through. Also try to match the weight of the the Powerbelt for what you want it to do. Heavy conicals should penetrate better.

If you wish to shoot powerbelts, try some. If they are accurate, hunt with them. If you hunt with them be sure and put them in the right place. Decide for yourself, and share you experiences with others.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

I have to agree with Randy on this one (about powerbelts)
I have seen powerbelts kill nice size elk (348 grain AT)
and in some guns that is the only conical that shoots to somewhat accuracy, In my Omega that is definetly the case. Use the heavier ones
and you will do fine. The skirt doesn't do a thing ,it can't as it spins on the bullet. I found they work best with a thin wad.
Redclub

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Do a google search for "Powerbelt Fragments" and see what you come up with. Bigger is better and slower is better if you intend to use the bullet for terminal performance, of course that assumes excellent shot placement and no bone hits.

Chap Gleason

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

I personally love Powerbelts i have never had a problem with them. They shoot great out of my CVA Hunterbolt 50 cal i would not use any other kind of bullet.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

They work great for me as long asI use the right ones of the job and my gun. I shot my first deer with them and couldn't be happier.

I don't like that price tag though. I no longer use them. I'm all for the XTP's now. They perform just as good if not better.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Gotta check ebay from time to time. Just bought 60, 225 grain copper plated .45's for $42 shipped.

Would have cost me $60 + shipping from cabelas and they charge up the rear for S/H...

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Yes... many. Of course I shoot a White...

Not true... he has plenty good to say about the Knight DISC Elite and Extreme, Encore, A&H inlines of any stripe, and even a White.

He likes Sightron SII, Bushnell 3200 and 4200, Millet scopes, etc. Lot's of stuff that doesn't seem to be on the payroll...

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

The powerbelt has been very accurate in most of my guns. Only shot one deer, used a 348HP, range was 5 yards. Needless to say the bullet didn't hold together. My biggest beef with the powerbelt is the cost. I shoot too much to buy bullets that cost a dollar apiece.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Overpowered at close range, therefore fragmented, happens quite a bit. Recommend a SabreTooth, which is stronger and better constructed bullet.
Chap Gleason

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

I have shot Powerbelts .50 cal, 223gr aerotips for almost 3 years out of my CVA Kodiak Mag. Usually shoot on top of 100gr of777 pellets. I consistently hit pop cans at 150 yards. I have taken5 deer with this gun all passthrough shots. All shots were between 50 and 125 yards. None of the deer went more then 75 yards. I have heard all the horror stories on Powerbelts, but they have preformed great for me.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

If you check with the company that makes them they will tell you that they do not recomend heavy loads. The Sabor Tooth on the other hand shoots the same holds together much better even with heavy loads but none of them come close to the SW's for accuracy at 200yds. Different strokes for different folks every body should use what they like and be tolerant of what other folks like. Lee

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Great concept, but I couldn't get the 245s to shoots good groups out of my Wolf. Went back to XTP's and nice groups again. Plus I get more bullets for my $$$. Figure out your gun, that's really what its all about.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

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The 50 cal. M/L will do the trick fine. I shoot a 45 cal M/L as does my wife and we have no problems.these are just 2 my wife has taken with B/P 45 cal wit 225 powerbelts 2 , 50 grain pellets.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

I have only used the hollow point bullets from power belt I forget what the weight was 300 and something. I have to say they were very accurate I was shocked at the range at their consistency. But I used these same bullets on Whitetailed deer and didn't like them one bit.They seem to explode inside a deer and not mushroom as advertised. If your just shooting at the range I highly recommend them but as for hunting I don't recommend them. But like you say that's just my opinion.
As far as Wakeman goes I had something happening to me on the range and when I reported on it he basically called me a lier That I wasn't seeing what I was seeing. Personally I think he is a stuck up bum. Again that's just my opinion.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

A lot of folks have had that same experience. Chap Gleason

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

A lot of other people must not have had those problems,theyare still the#1 selling bullet.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Greetings FG,
Yes,I am aware of their market share and the number of bullets they sell.However, how long does it take toestablish product reputation? The scripturessay that a good reputation is better than silver and gold, so it is important. I think the reputation of the PB is somewhat tarnished (note I didn't saywrecked, product recallor evil or anything like that, just tarnished---not perfectly clean)nowgiven it's fragamention issues--documented on the Webby some major ML writers--Toby Bridges and Randy Wakeman. The number 1 question on bullet performance that Randay Wakeman and Toby Bridges gets is whya PBfragmented. Further many other huntershave reported problems on the Web, and no longer shoot the bullet, just do a google search for "Powerbelt fragments" or Powerbelt Bullet Performance and read the threads and posts. I know this is counter to yourown experience. IfCVA put a productlabel on the package, like a pack of cigarettes (that was a forced situation I know), something like

shoot them less than 1200 fps or
don't shoot 3 pellets with them or
use heavy (>=348g)PB bullets for whitetails

That would be a good thing. All this I learned on thisforum (thank you forum members)or the web. I had no idea that 1200 fps was the magic number for a PB, nor was I aware that the heavier PB performed better, nor was I aware that if you overpowered the charge they would explode on impact especially at close range. I really wish I had known that. I didn't. If they are used properly they are an excellent bullet, I have no doubt about that. You know how to use them, I have no doubt about that either, your a life member of this forum, so you got some experience and knowledge. I had >>no<< guidance on proper use of PB. I do now, but I have found better bullets thru my own testing and experimentation andthru following threads on this forum and reading about bullet performance on the web and books (I collect articles on ML bullet performance in a folder--one of the best is by Richard Mann in Black Powder Shooting and Hunting about3 yeards go). Thanks for your comment on their market share.By the way FG, I just bought the book "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter, A Definitive Study" and have read the ML chaper twice. Bruce Towsley is the auther of the ML bullets section. I will try to summarize in a post the bottom line of this chapter, since it has a national expert speaking. Authors of the book are:
John Barsness, Craig Boddington, John Haviland, Richard Mann, Ron Spomer and Bryce Towsley. An interesting read.

Chap Gleason Va

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

The PowerBelt functional concept is OK. However, many people tend to shoot very light ones with heavy powder charges. This gives a high MV and a relkatively flat trajectory. But many who do so fail to realize that big, fat,light, high MV bullets shed velocity very fast, and consequently have less power on impact than a slower, heavier bullet would have had. Then they get disturbed at the lack of performance. Just keep in mind that black powder arms gain power by using massive-for-caliber bullets at moderate to slow velocities.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

So me being new to ML, I will ask.Yoursaying Iwould be better off instead of usinga 245 grain Powerbelt areotip with 2 50gr Pyrodex pellets to switch to maybe a 295gr areotip and maybe less powder? Play around with the loose powder 80-95gr or so? Thanks

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

245 grain bullet + 150 grains powder + rib shot/lung = dead deer Times 2 in my book.

I just ordered some 225's for my .45 and heres what the chart recommends.

Loose powder, 175-195-225-275 powerbelt= 80-90 grains.
Pellets 175-195-225-275= 100 grain pellets.
.45 magnum 175 195 225 275- 150 grain pellets.

80-90 grains loose for all 50 cal powerbelts.
80-100 for pellets
110-150 for magnum loads with pellets.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

sjsfire

This is just my opinion and I am certainly not an authority, but if you don have to shoot power belts - don't. There are far better bullets out than than a PB, both more expensive ones and ones far less expensive. If you are in state that does not allow sabots and regular jacket bullets, then I might consider a PB, but even then if you are gong to shoot a full bullet there are some awful good conicals out there thatwill out perform a PB.

The major reason people shoot PB's in an ML is because they load easy. That is just not a valid reason anymore to shoot them. They are also a great way to begin shooting - expensive but easy to learn with - same for pellets.... but I would suggest to you as soon as you can make the jump away from pellets and PB's you will open a whole new world in shooting a ML...

Good luck on what ever you do - just have fun....

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

From my own experience, 385 GP conical is a great deer projectile when used with 80 grains Goex or RS. Awesome expansion and pass through penetration on double lung every time. Good combination.

Just like Eldequello said, bigger is best for downrange delivery of power, slower to moderate velocity is better.

I've not hunted with PB's yet. But functionally they are a full bore all lead conical (copper plating is not a jacket) with a generous hollowpoint, indeed quite similar to the 385 GP's I like to use, though PB's are superior in ballistic efficiency. Just like the GP's, they will expand well at low velocity, and if they are heavy, drive right through a deer without worry. If you are going to use them, you may try the 405's with 80 grains if its accurate in your rifle. IMHO, any light weight jacketed bullet which shares the same impact energy of that load, will underperform it, wasting more energy on entrance and causing inferior trauma, and exiting with less energy being imparted to wounding.

The key to getting the most out ofunjacketed hollowpointbullets is exploiting their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

I have used the .50 cal, 223gr aerotips with great success with 100gr & 150gr load of 777 pellets. I have never had the fragmentation issues other people have experienced. However, I have never tried to use the hollowpoint version of Powerbelts. With the areotip, all my shots have been passthroughs between 50 & 125 yards. Are most of the fragmentation issues occurring with the hollowpoint? Has anyone experienced fragmentation with the aerotip?

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

My brother has with a 295G Aerotip Platinum. Shoulder hit at 60 yards. Bullet blew meat, hair and bullet fragments on the ground. My brother mailed all his PBs to CVA and said make a better bullet. He now shoots Harvester Sabertooth.
Chap Gleason

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

348 gr Aerotip and 115 grs of 777 at 45 yds = no exit with a chest hit and nothing found bigger than maybe 20 grs. The deer only ran about 35 yds. so I guess it did its job but I think there are many better bullets out there. If you use them I would listen to some of the other comments and keep the powder under 100 grs. Just my opinion.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

This page has a lot of info on PB fragmentation issues:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/powerbelt_page.htm

also google search "Powerbelt fragments". The bigger PBs (>=348)shot at low speed appear to shoot thru and have good terminal performance. I don't think the Platinum is anything except a different thin jacket for the same bullet material at the regular copper pb. I believe the aerotip is the same hollow point with just a plastic tip and on impact there would be little difference between the aero tip and the hollow point. Therefore they fly better, but hit the same essentially.
Chap Gleason
Chap Gleason

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Agree. There are many, many better bullets out there. Personally I like 300g because they tend to shoot thru the deer, I like them to expand fully but shoot thru for a good blood trail. XTP are cheap and good.Speer Gold Tips are cheap and good.Any of the Barnes ML bullets are geat. Nosler Partion HG bullets are great. If your looking for an alternative to the PB, try a Harvester SaberTooth. Glue the bottoms on however. Just my opinion.
Chap Gleason

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

quote]
Glue the bottoms on however. Just my opinion.
Chap Gleason
[/quote]

So why would you glue the the bottoms on? By the looks of them shouldn't they separate from the bullet when fired like a Powerbelt. I'm interested in the Sabertooths. But curious about the glue comment. Thanks

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

Saber Tooth button ends I found today almost 80 yards from where they were originally shot. Their accuracy was still good, but it did surprise me when I came across them back in the woods.

RE: PowerBelts and Randy Wakeman
 

SJSfire,
Some have said on this forum that they tiped the muzzle of their gun toward the ground and the bullet fell out! Worst yet, if a bullet shifted say a foot up from the load, then you have a barrel obstruction and that is not good--nobody has reported this to my knowledge, but it could happen. If your barrel is nice and tight then there is no worry, but if it is say loose, then glueing on theplastic seperator would be the right way to go. Cayugad however in his rifle reports that they don't come off till 80 yards from the shooter, that seems very long to me, so maybe there is no problem. I have not used the bullets yet, but intend to get some and shoot some. I like the strength, expansion and penetration of the SabreTooth, from what I have read and the deer my brother shot in NY the last day of the season. I am however a sabot shooter--Crushed rib sabot with an XTP Mag in a FL 70 to 80g of Goex, Nosler Partition over 100g of 777 with crush rib in an Omega and Knight Disc. Ihave on order aSavage 10ML (black stock and SS barrel) and intend to shoot Barnes Red Hots, TC ShockWave or something with a high balistic coeffient in the 10ML (I have bought several to try). Have the scope already, just not the rifle or the mounts and rings.I like Leoupoud rings, but haveheard good things about the Warn QD rings, most of the 10MLer use these rings and mounts.I would google search for Harvester Sabretooth and read what is out there, you will get a good impression also by looking at the product reports at Cabelas and Midway and MidSouth Shooters supply.

Another source of good information on bullet performanceis "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter a Definitive Study". If you read the chapers on Deer Bullets, Bullet theory, ML bullets and Solids it gives a lot of good information. I just bought a copy about 3 weeks ago from www.ramworks.net and it is a good read. Bryce Towsley wrote the ML chapter.
Chap Gleason VA