Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Going to Gander Mountain today to get some powder. Hoping they have Pinnacle, cuz I want to try it in my T/C Scout. I looked for Pinnacle at a local sporting goods store but they don't carry it. The guy there said they can't, because they don't have a license to sell explosive powder. He said the Pyrodex they do sell is not considered explosive, because it "burns", but that the Pinnacle "explodes". I told him thanks, but left scratching my head on that one.

Anybody know if he was correct? If so, is Pinnacle going to be safe to shoot in my T/C Scout? I would use 100 grains max (maybe 110), but now I'm wondering about barrel pressures with the Pinnacle, and if I can use it in my Scout.

Any help would really be appreciated. Thanks, Al

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Thats a very good question take1a. I am new to ML and still learning. I
have been using pyrodex pellets and was just about to buy some powder
to prepare for a ML hunt for elk in Colorado. I'll watch for responses to
your question.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Pinnacle is not considered in the same classification as Goex to my knowledge. Goex black powder is indeed an explosive and because of this require must stricter handling and storage measures. This is why many of the stores will not carry it. That and insurance reasons. I have bought Pinnacle at Gander Mountain in the past. I also bought American Pioneer Powder there.

I will warn you, when I asked the clerk at the Gander Mountian if they carried Black Mag 3 he said NO. So I asked do you have Pinnacle, or American Pioneer? He again answered NO. But did offer to let me look in this back storage thing they had in the store. In there was Pinnacle, American Pioneer, Triple Se7en, and Pyrodex P. When I pointed out they had American Pioneer he said, oh we call that APP. I was confused. So do not be shy at those stores. A lot of them people have no idea what they are talking about. Sometimes you have to dig for it because they do not always know what they sell.

I have shot a lot ofPinnacle and while it is a clean burning powder, it did not like conicals or heavy 300+ gr sabot loads.Pinnacle is made through the cooperation of Goex and American Pioneer Powder by American Pioneer Powder. Why Goex takes credit for the stuff I have no idea other then their name is on the jar. It is very clean burning, and very easy to clean up.

Personally I think in your scout you would get the best results from Pyrodex RS or Goex 2f. So your results will be interesting. I will be looking forward to reading them.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Pinnacle is indeed an ascorbic acid based powder just like APP and Black Mag'3. The shop guy was wrong; he can stock those kinds of powder without the real black powder requirements. If he can stock smokeless powder he can stock all of the above. I shot some of the old Goex Clear Shot (I think that was it I get confused with Clear Shot and Clean Shot as they were around at about the same time). The one by Goex was a real poor powder but did function in my T/C Scout so I would expect that the Pinnacle will also. The other one eventually became APP. In fact I killed my first Elk with that powder. It performed so poorly that the bullet keyholed and went through the elk sideways (still worked as it passed throught the heart sideways).

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Since this is a powder discussion, I have a very basic question if you will
because I to do not get very much information from my local gun shop.
I see references to ffg and fffg as well a RS and P designations to powder.
Could someone explain the differences in all of these. Does it have something to do with whether it is for pistol or rifle or coarsness of powder.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Admit it MLKeith, you did that on purpose to make a bigger entry hole.. :D:D:D Out of curiosity, how far did that keyhole bullet travel inside the animal and what kind of damage did it do,

A while back I was shooting Shockwaves of all things and on the target got a perfect keyhole with the bullet. I was actually shocked to see it, but the out line through the paper was unmistakable.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

In the Pyrodex.. RS would be considered a grade 2 powder. the RS is for Rifle & Shotgun. The Pyrodex P is a grade 3 powder and of course you're correct the P is for Pistol.

When dealing with Goex and some of the other powders you see 1f, 2f, 3f, & 4f. 1f = cannon powder. 2f = large bore rifles from 50 caliber and up. 3f = small bore rifles and pistols from 50 caliber on down. And 4f is a priming powder for flintlock pans.

The other powders like APP and Black Mag3 (is a grade 3 powder) are the same for grades. The higher the number the finer the powder granule size. I have heard there is even 7f but never saw it. It must look like dust.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Thanks cayuqad, that answers my question. It seems to me then for
shooting my cva 50 cal I would use RS 2f. I will be practicing on powder
loads and bullet combinations for elk size game. Is their any reason something different would be in order. I see in some discussions someone
would be using 2f and try 3f.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Both powders would probably work. The finer the grade the faster the burn and you get a little more energy on the projectile. I do shoot 3f powders very often in my rifles. It is just that some of them like the 2f and some the 3f. The only way to discover this is to shoot the different powders.



Yesterday for example I was shooting my Knight Wolverine LK-II. It has a 22 inch barrel and uses #11 caps. In my opinion with the 375 grain Buffalo Bullet Company SSB projectiles, it shoots better with the slow powder. The Pyrodex RS if I had swabbed would have been an excellent group. The Goex 2f was an excellent group, but I was swabbing between shots.

The APP (American Pioneer Powder) with the heavy projectile did terrible. They tell you that swabbing is not necessary. I am going to do some further testing with that since I got another pound of the stuff (even though I claimed I was not going to buy anymore of it). And the Goex 3f with the heavy sabot did not do as well as I thought it would.

Yet when I shoot a 240 grain XTP I use Goex 3f powder in the rifle because I get better accuracy with that. Also with finer powders like the 3f grade, you can often times reduce the amount of powder you need for the same kind of accuracy.

So all you can do is experiment. Good luck with your rifle.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Well, last minute plan change: no Gander Mountain trip today after all. :(

Still would like to know if the barrel pressures with Pinnacle might be too much for my Scout though. Do the powder manufacturers list some sort of measurement somewhere that might provide this information?

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Thanks again Cayuqad, geat info.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Blackpowder is classified as an explosive. Pinnacle is not. It burns slowly, slower than Pyrodex. They could sell pinnacle if they chose to.

Blackpowder burns to. It burns so much faster than pyrodex and pinnacle that it can more easily be contained sufficiently to create an explosion.Given the right amount containment, pyrodex and pinnaclecould, i suspect,also cause an explosion.

You can use blackpowder or any blackpowder substitute safely in the scout.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

More B.S. I am amazed at the number of total ignoramuses selling guns & ammo these days, and NOT just at Walmart!!!

Real BLACK POWDER is classified as a "low explosive", (which means that when it explodes, it does not produce the ultra-high-velocity shockwave that a HIGH EXPLOSIVE like TNT or dynamite produces); andin large quantities, black powderwillexplode if ignited, even if not confined.

However, smokeless powders AND"replica" or substitute black powders like Pyrodex, Pinnacle, APP, 777, etc., are ALL classified as "flammable solids", not explosives. All can be shipped and stored under the fire codes pertaining to flammable solids...... If ignited in the open, all they will do is BURN. They burn vigorously and impressively, but they will not explode.....

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

I've noticed that groups open with 3f with lower charges than 2f. 90 grains 3f would yield similar muzzle velocity to 100 grains 2f and might tighten up for you.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Admit it MLKeith, you did that on purpose to make a bigger entry hole.. :D:D:D Out of curiosity, how far did that keyhole bullet travel inside the animal and what kind of damage did it do,

A while back I was shooting Shockwaves of all things and on the target got a perfect keyhole with the bullet. I was actually shocked to see it, but the out line through the paper was unmistakable.
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It was a .50 cal. 348gr. Powerbelt plated aerotip. It was only being driven by 80gr. of the Clear Shot (I think that is the old Goex one). It passed completely through a large cow elk (estimated 875lb walking - I got 375lbs. of deboned meat). It went completely through the heart and lodged in the far side ribcage. Distance was 80 yards. The plastic tip was still in the bullet and there was only a small dent on one side. I suspect I could have been reloaded and probably shot again. The cow walked slowly about 30 yards and fell over. Apparently the secret to keeping the Powerbelts together is to shoot them sideways. I have since decided to try to shoot pure lead conicals if I can get them to print OK. I have shot some .295gr. Powerbelts and had them go completely through the ribcage also. I have shot some other 300gr. bullets and am starting to believe that to drop an elk fast you need to have heavier bullets as none of mine have fallen down on the bullet impact like some of the outdoor shows indicate. I put two 300gr. bullets completely through another cow elk and she went at least 1/4 mile after and was still standing when I caught up with her. Both lungs were hit as well as a portion of the liver.

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

That just supports what I was told by this guide I talked to at a gun show once. He claimed that he told his clients, shoot for the major organsand if possible shoot it again. He explained elk are tuff and will go a long distance with a fatal hit. I guess what you told me kind of supports that. I really need to hunt elk with a muzzleloader some day before my legs give out.:D

RE: Pinnacle, "burn" vs. "explosive"
 

Dave:
Elk is the only big game I hunt as the deer meat in Arizona is not to my liking. I love eastern whitetail but desert Mule deer is too gamey for me. The elk are easier to find and the meat is great if you can get drawn for the hunt. Once one is down the real work starts. I hunt alone and a big elk is a lot of work. That first cow required me to be up to my shoulders in the belly cavity to try to reach the heart which I could not do. The gut pile was bigger than most big deer and getting the cow on my trailer took two hours and finally with help from a couple of passing hunters. I have worked out a program that requires two vehicles and a trailer some pulleys and a lot of rope to get the elk loaded. Missed my elk this year as the closest one was 140 yards ranged and my Omega has not been shooting that distance well with the present bullets so I passed. That is where the new White Thunderbolt is supposed to come into the picture if Doc ever finds a barrel for it. Had a cow tag and as luck would have it a big bull walked within a few feet of me on the last day of the hunt. I don't get to shoot as much as you do so the longer distance shots are not in my confidence range at this time. As noted the big animals do not go down easy and a bad shot on one is not anything I want to deal with.