Early Renegade barrels...........
 

I may have stumbled onto a little known tidbit of info on Renegade barrels.This may explain why some shoot and others are so-so.I guess early TC barrels were made by Douglas marked with a W on the bottom of the barrel beside the wedge slot.Not sure when this started or ended for that matter but the 'W' marked ones all shoot! They probably made all of the early TC barrels at one time.Maybe this is old news just thought I'd pass it along.Thanx Harold

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

I never knew that.. but the Douglas Barrels were sure good shooters.

Another good shooter years ago was a Sharon Barrel. A friend of mine had one on a .54 caliber and would that thing shoot. He paid a lot of money for it, but in my opinion it was worth it. I never seen a rifle that accurate. I even tried to buy it off him, but he would not sell.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

I did talk to a t/c rep: some time back,He did give the marks to look for the heart or spade were sharon barrel the W I can;t remember if so but all my early barrels have the W and they all are tack driver with heavy charges of black and round balls and all flinters
54 cal. renegade 95 grains of 3F goex a wad and hornady 230 grain RB good day can but all 3 shots clover leaf group from the bench at the 100 yd target
My 50 cal. hawkens flinter 100 grains of 3F and a wad same type of groupe.
I just located a 45 cal. barrel N.O.S. that is going to a PA hunter stock again 5 digit serial number will see how she prints this spring,I am just adding the last coat of tung oil to the stock should be ready to go by the end of the week.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Pioneer2

Somewhere in there after Douglas, Green Mountain built barrels for them also...

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

I have two Renegades that has no mark at all. Two others have a W on them. I know for a fact that the two with no mark on them were kit rifles becauseI built them back in the early 80's.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Best I can tell you is they make most of their own barrels, seen it being done myself. I also know Green Mountain helped them out after the fire.

I have a very early Renegade and I will look for the "W" next time I have the barrel out of the stock, it is a fine shooting rifle. The serial # is 15,XXX.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Mine has a W with a spade underneath it and it shoots very well. Mine is serial 17*****.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

My Renegade barrel with no marks must really be old. The serial number on my oldest rifle is 5XXX (four numbers only). Still this is a good shooter. It will shoot roundball, conical, about anything I want to stuff down it. It's been responsible for a lot of whitetails.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

cayugad

Ok, now you guys made me go dig out the other Renegades... I have a K barrel that is an old barrel and it is marked with a "W" or and "M" which ever way you look atit + the one I am shooting, both of these barrels do not reference Pyrodex and the other now mark at all, but I am 99% sure it is a Green Mountain...and it does reference Pyrodex...

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Dave: 4 digit serial number could be a sharon barrel,flip the barrel and on the bottom near the breach plug should be a stamp if it has a heart it a sharon barrel

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Lonewolf -

Looking closer at it, I can see a check mark with a symbol off that which I can hardly make out. The bluing is all worn off the barrel now from age and all the cleaning it has had. It could be a ♥ or a â™* symbol but I would not swear to it. The check mark is under that ♥ or â™*and runs to the bottom of it. Like I said this is my oldest barrel. The only reason I refuse to part with it is ... this old devil will really shoot. It might be ugly and needs to be reblued, but I've grown used to it. I load 90 grains of Pyrodex RS and a patched roundball in it. and anything within 100 yards is mine. ☺☺☺

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Well I checked my flinter and it has the "W" or m however it was ment to be displayed. It is a great shooter for sure.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Mine must be a newbie it has a L****K for a serial #( * = #'s) and no stamps on the bottom of the barrel. I presume the L is for Left hand?? 50 cal percussion left handed

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

To all,
Some of you saw my post about the used custom kit rifle I purchased w/the Douglas barrel. I did some research and called the factory. I tried to find out the years they made BP barrels. I spoke w/an older employee and he gave me some rough dates of 1962-1987. On the bottom of my barrel it is stampedclearly, GR Douglas 50 cal. No twist is indicated but he did say it was a slow twist.My rifle has a Longs lock of Denver and I have zero info on this one other than it is mid to early 80's @ the youngest. I remembered an interview I read that Wakeman did w/Doc White. The article is pretty clear but open to interpertation when in reference to sabot loads. Here is the article!

http://www.chuckhawks.com/doc_white4.htm
"DOC: One of the big problems in the muzzleloading industry is the lack of standardization that exists in the modern gun industry. That standardization is the lone factor that has made modern guns so predictable and trustworthy. We have been downright spoiled by that fact. It has also worked to the benefit of the manufacturers, because the customer knows that he can trust the products of even obscure makers, whch makes for easy sales.
Standardization in muzzleloading would have a similar effect, but it would present some problems to certain manufacturers. They would have to step up to the quality control home plate, but I think they would hit a homer if they did. The current situation is chaotic and confused, to say the least, somewhat akin to the teen years of human life; maturity approaches but at a distance. Thus the panic and distress, and thus the hate mail rather than a measured, responsible approach.
The question of extruded steel barrels is another matter. Douglas used extruded steel for their round ball barrels for years, extruding just the blanks then drilling, reaming and rifling as usual.
The steel was quite brittle; screwing in a breechplug would sometimes crack the barrel. They finally desisted after several lawsuits. Yes, their barrels were accurate and enjoyed a great reputation. Those that have survived for years are probably going to survive for centuries. Still, unless the technology of extrusion and annealing has changed, and as far as I know it has not, the question will eventually be answered in the same fashion (in the courts), since average pressures using modern sabots, rather than round balls, have about doubled.
RW: On the subject of barrels, I was surprised when a major muzzleloading manufacturer related their allowable rifling depth tolerances to me: it is .0035" to .006". I was further taken aback to learn that these "tolerances" are not just from barrel to barrel, but they are allowable tolerances in the very SAME barrel! Doc, you has mentioned in one of our conversations that realm of windage, not quite coincidentally, is the range that saboted projectiles can seal. Muzzleloading bullet specialists have additionally verified this. It seems that, for lack of a better term, many muzzleloading companies can "get away" with this type of slop as sabots have a bit of memory, and tolerate the rough ride though a barrel like this. Yet, pure lead conicals do not have this ability. It seems that White rifles' barrel tolerances, and their proficiency at throwing conicals into the same hole where other manufacturers' rifles fail, is far more than just rate of twist, GBQ steel, and barrel rigidity-but is contingent on your rifling tolerances as well. Is this the case?"

What is your opinion on the article?
Thanks, SHills

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

SHills, are you concerned about whether the Douglasbarrel is safe to shoot? If you are I would not be too concerned as it has made it this far, it probably has a few thousand more shots left in it. At least let me say, if it were mine I'd be shooting it.

As for Doc White knowing what he talks about. Yes, I have a lot of respect for what he has to say.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

cayugad,
No not really worried for loads of 100 grains or less w/patched ball. Yes the article pointed out if it was going blow it would have by now....
Just thought it was a very interesting info about Douglas.
SHills

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

I had read that artical a while ago. I always thought Douglas Barrels were one of the better ones out there. That artical kind of surprised me actually.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

I feel agenda driven interviews are nothing but ads for one of the parties involved. RW has lost all credibility in my book but I do not feel the same way about Mr. White.

As a T/C fan andniehbor of the plant if there were people being killed or maimed by the product it would be big news around here. I just don't get this guy he is always claiming someones product is blowing up with no stats to prove it and we sheeple are just suppose to take his word for it.

This post is not aimed at you SHill but it is funny how mfg will use a writer to do dirty work that would cause them to pay millions in court for lieble.

Have you noticed how saftey concerns all the sudden are RW's MO? Can you or anyone on the forum sight one case of a T/C gun properly loaded blowing up? Any Renegade at all?

Another thought is how does a lighter bullet in a sabot make more pressure than a heavy conical?

I've got nothing else really to add.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

PBH

Just ny thoughts mind ya, so it doesn't carry a lot of weight... but as to your question?

I believe in some instances this really could happen, and probably does happen on more occasions than we would want to know about, but, and probably not by a veteran (and that is a poor word but you will get the idea). I have seen people insert a bullet into a sabots and then actually pound the combination down the barrel with a mallet, piece of wood, or some such thing.... that combination certainly could build up some un-wanted pressures...

Again it goes back to common sense and paying attention to detail.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

PBH,
I can't remember ever hearing of a rifled ML blowing up but have heard of accidents w/smokeless powders.
I don't know RW or his history. By taking the interviewand putting it here to read in no way was to try to discredit anyone. I did notice that RW must have asked a question that he did not show because the start of the sentense didn't seem to fit.
"The question of extruded steel barrels is another matter."
I believe the point of the article to me was to show that White rifles go through a series of standarized tests that White developed that others don't do. He was adding creditability or selling it. Either way point taken. I think TC has stood the test of time and they are one of the best IF not the best out there.I don't really see how any powder load could ever damage a 1" octagon barrel. You would think it would just push out unburned powder unless there was an obstruction. I have always heard Douglas was one of the best manufactures out there. Never heard otherwise till I read that article. He didn't point out any specfic cases butI would think there could be a liability issue if it were untrue...

I have read some accounts of union armorers during the civil war recovering rifles that had numerous rounds shoved down the barrel w/ only one powder charge and the barrels didn't burst.

My point of bringing the article forward is striclyinformative, w/no hidden agendas.
SHills

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

I know that is why I clearly stated that you were not involved. It is something new the past couple of years I noticed with writers and hunters the way they advertise without stating they have a stake in the product they slam or praise. They write like it is just an informative statement without discloser.

I also agree with the previous poster that a sabot wedged into a barrel could prove to be an obstruction and cause the barrel to fail but that would not be a properly loaded weapon.

SHills, What is the date that artical first came out? I do not remember RW having dealings with White of late. He gave them praise (well deserved) years ago but don't recall him stating that T/C's would fail back then.

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

PBH,
If you follow the link I provided you can read all the articles written by Wakeman and a few others. I don't think he said anything about TC but an earlier poster said Douglas made barrels for TC. I provided the article by RW about their barrels since I own a custom rifle w/ one. I was surprised to learn that info myself. Like you I would think it very improbable to burst a rifled barrel but I would hate to have a breech plug or nipple hit in the noggin!
SHills

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

SHills

I am going to jump in a bit, hope not to cause any problems.... but I do not think "all" Douglas barrels are/were extruded - it was a process they were developing. Extruded barrels have come along way since the beginning as does anything.

RW's slam/comment MAY have been in requards to the Remington Model 700 ML, which he reviewed and really took it to town, and then when Remington would not give in to his wishes, the battle even got a little brutal. He once posted a history of the whole event and in a lot of ways it did come down to$. Anyway the barrels on the Remington's are Douglas - they were not extruded - but they were Douglas so he expanded the commenting to include extruded barrels by Douglas. The biggest problem with extruded barrels at that time and maybe even today is/was the bore was not equal in diameter the whole distance.... Now shooting sabots that is really not a huge problem, but shooting a full bore projectile it would be a big problem. Another reason extruded barrels by Douglas were limited to ML barrels.

Just some thoughts...

RE: Early Renegade barrels...........
 

Sabotloader,
If you go back to the linkI provided it was doc white who said douglas barrels were extruded. No hint was mentioned about remington UNLESS the articlewas incomplete...
Never knew that about remington ml barrels!
That was howI read it.
Thanks, SHills