cascadedad

Wow, where do I start? First, I think I remember those ~150 yard shots of yours. At least one of the two was offhand, correct? Open sights, right? So, were you aiming at the neck on that one shot? Was your brother shooting for the high spine? How many deer have you lost, or do you get lucky every time?

You say, "It may on a shoulder shot but i do not take those kind of shots and never will."

Do you understand where I am going with this? You really need to slow down and think about what you are saying. You don't take those kind of shots, but you will take ~150 yard shots off hand. What are the chances you will hit a deer in the shoulder with your PB? What about a gut shot?

Just think about it.

Pglasgow

Jon,

If you willconsider the ranges at which your bullets impacted it should be clear that they had slowed down considerably by the time they impacted. The impact velocities would have been in an acceptable range of impact velocity, though perhaps greater than ideal for the powerbelts design. At ten yards, the results that other complain of would be evident to you and you would get a sense of what they are complaining of.

frontier gander

So far all the years hunting ive only had one chance to actually lay down and take my time. Everything with a muzzleloader ive taken has been one of those suprises like, Is that a deer? Oh shi!!!. Last year i had just enoughtime to look over at my dad, look back at the deer, whistle to get them to stop and fire. And no i was aiming for my ususal spot and the wind was bad down in the valley where the deer was, i was out of breath after spotting them and running to them " late evening". I dont take shots i dont feel comfortable with. Last year i gave up a 100 yard shot on a nice buck because i knew there was a camp over the little ridge and didnt want to chance it, Plus my range finder wouldnt get a reading on him in the shade and he looks atleast 130 yards out there. Kinda crappy when u recheck the range and find it was really 100 yards. I even put bi pod on my inline so i could start taking my time with shots.. Havnt used it once due to the animals not giving me the chance.

Brother had his 3" high at 100 and was shooting up hill. His shot again was through a small opening of brush and she was the only doe showing her vitals.

I refuse to take a shoulder shot due to it ruining a lot of meat and is not a humane shot.. I found out the hard way when i had to finish the doe off with my sidearm. Never had a gut shot but im sure one of those will come, as it will happen to every hunter out there. As for my shots being all off hand, Thats going to happen when you are in barren land with only sage brush. I practice alot shooting off my knee during the off season, i know how my rifle acts with certain loads i shoot and i am confident of my shooting abilities. To be honest with all of you, since i have done some work to my rifle and updated the sights, i wouldnt be affraid to take a 200 yard shot with this rifle now. Of course i would only do a shot that far if i was resting the rifle on some rocks or a tree. One thing a lot of hunters get is buck fever and end up with a poorly placed shot. Ive gotten over buck fever.. Unless its a big elk, then my knees start to knock.

And that unhumane shot i ended up with in the deers shoulder was with a huge great plains bullet. I walked up to her after the first shot hit below her spine, shot her from 20 yards direct in the shoulder and she was still alive and showed no signs of going under any time soon. After i gutted her i found that no organs had been hit, only her windpipe was shattered and she couldnt breathe. After seeing that i will never take a shoulder shot ever again. I'll take a lung shot thats kills within a few seconds than a shoulder shot that never seems to end its misery.

charlie brown

It has been quite some time since I have purchased any PB's, but doesn't it say on the package of the 295 Lead Hollow points to use approximately 80-90 grains of 2f or RS, and no more? Think CVA was thinking of that when they put these things together, that a high impact velocity could cause malfunctions of the bullet? 80 grains should push these things at the 1400 fps range, which would in turn be about 1200 fps at 50 yards, well within the impact velocity range discussed. I agree, with all that is heard of these things failing, just might be people pushing them too fast with magnum charges, and short range shots that don't allow the velocity of the projectile to get below 1300 fps. I have no hunting experience with these bullets, only with T/C Maxi Balls, just an observation...

Later,

Marcial

Rebel Hog

WOW! Look what a .45 cal with225 PB and 2 50gr pellets and do.

Hogs with Smokepoles!

Pglasgow

As an aside. My particular choice of 60 grains was only to saddle equivalent energies with the .54 PRBat 40 yards. .54 roundball is a proven killer of deer, which inspite of its relatively low sectional density, (or terminal sectional density if it matters to you), doesn't have any problem penetrating deer deeply or causing traumatic swiftly killing wounds. 60 grains merely equivicated the impact energies at 40 yards.

So yes, one can use more than 60 grains as far as I am concerned.

Even so, 60 grains is just fine out to 100 yards with the wind cooperating, a good rest, and a rifle which shoots them accurately with this charge. My sidekick shot them with 65 grains into sub 1.5 in. groups in windy conditions at 50 yards using open sights. How many times have people asked, "What would be a good load for my daughter, I need a good load with acceptable recoil for a 12 year old, a load good to 70 or 80 yards"?

Brand bashing and blaming a projectile forpoorly placed shots helps no one. All it does is move where people spend their money. It does so by fallaciously programming unreasonable fears into the minds of people who deserve better than to be disrespected like that.

ahankster

"150 grainsof powder and a 245 or 295 grain powerbelt will NOT blow up with a lung shot."

Sorry, this just isn't supported by the facts. You may have gotten lucky with one, but I have seen numerous shots that did not. The one I described earlier was a double lung shot. Absoloutly exploded the lungs. Deer went about 40 yards in some very thick cover and was difficult to find. Bullet, or the majority of it, was just under the skin on the opposite side.

I've seen lots of deer hit with PBs, lung shots, spine shots and shoulder shots. Around here, the end result has always been the same. A blowed up bullet. Sometimes fragments make it out the other side, but not really a bullet with most of it's mass. The main reason for this is that everyone watches on TV and reads about them and two things happen. First, they hear about "magnum" loads and assume more is better and second, their over zealos attitudes and mouth gets them into the same mode; more is better. End result is they stuff 100 or 150 grains down the muzzle, find that the bullet is very accurate with this combo and assume that the terminal perforance will be the same.

There are clubs in the south considering banning PBs because of this performance. I have heard of outfitters that refuse to allow clients to use them and we are reviewing them where we hunt.

I think the 1200 fps area is probably an excellent data point. Better is slow to a point, faster is bad at a point. Every bullet has an optimal terminal performance range. I don't care whether it is a Nosler Partition, Sierra Game King, Shockwave or Power Belt. Keep them in this range and it is unlikely that you will be dissapointed. Any bullet pushed to fast will blow up on impact and the PB is probably in the 1200 to 1300 fps range.

Hank

Pglasgow

I'm so glad you said this, especially the last part about any bullet. I've been wanting to say it but decided to let some one else say it first. It is my personal opinion that a big exit wound is more important that a big entrance wound. The faster a bullet goes the more cratering and dissipation of its energy occurs at the surface. The faster it goes the more its energy dissipates at right angles to its motion. This kind of energy dissipation at the POI does nothing to wound the internal organs, only the energy which remains upon entrance to the vitals can wound and only that portion which doesn't exitin a passthrough.There is a function of diminishing returns by adding more powder and increasing the velocity. Other than increased range, I have to wonder how much actual benefit is achieved from using 100 grains in a 50 cal rifle.

I keep going back to my own experiences of 70-90 grains 3f BP and a 385 GP and extensive hunting with 7 rem mag. I really can not say that the 7 mag kills more swiftly. I can't say the deer move any less from impact. I can say it penetrates awesome, shoots flat and very accurately past 200 yards and makes hunting with it boring for me now.

I don't think that PB's blow up between 1200 and 1300 fps. From what I could gather the field experiences of others, they usually pass through in this range of velocities. Beyond 1300 fps on impact andone can expect over expansion, excessive weight loss (fragmentation), non-pass through performance.

I would like to be clear that I don't believe that every powerbelt is the same. The data I analyzed was with the 295. I am certain that a 223 PB can't stand as much impact velocity as a 295 and I am certain that a 405 PB can stand more impact velocity.

flounder33

I am a relative newcomer to muzzleloading. Last November I shot my first deer with my Winchester Apex. I had sighted it in using two 50 grain triple seven pellets and a 295 powerbelt so that's what I used for my hunt. I believe that would be equivalent to about 85 grains of triple seven loose powder. I had practiced enough so I was confident in my shot placement. I shot a really nice sized doe broadside at about 75 yards. I waited a while, reloaded, and went to take a look. There was no blood trail near where I had shot her. I knew I had hit her just behind the shoulder so I went back to where she was hit and I could see her tracks. It was the tracks I followed to find her next to the river in some pretty heavy cover. Upon field dressing and butchering her we found several bullet fragments, all of them quite small, maybe 30 or 40 grains being the largest.
I feel very fortunate to have recovered that deer. The bullet desintegrated upon impact with a rib. I am not bashing powerbelts, just relating my experience with them. I wouldn't think at that range I was overdriving the projectile. I am going with something else next season, maybe the shockwave, I've heard good and bad about them too.
Art

Pglasgow

flounder33,

Your experience at that range, with that charge, is typical. Look at the chart below. Figuring your elevation at 1000 ft, I get 1372 for impact velocity. Just like I said in my previous posting, you got over expansion, excessive weight loss, and non-pass through performance.

Oddly enough, I think you would have been satisfied if you had used 2 30 grain pellets instead.