totally lost
 

I've been reading these posts since Nov. trying to put together information fora purchase. I have been rifle hunting but would really enjoy being there earlier in the rut. CO as I understand isa non-sabot, no pellet powder, no scope. After reading these posts, I was considering the omega though that is not set in stone. I don't have a clue which type of power to purchase, which projectile, if it says no sabots - is that only a round ball and patch or can you use a powerbelt. I reside in Iowa and would also consider deer hunting with it. I am not impressed with the group hunts and shotgunning method my fine stateengages in.

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timwlarsen

I own an Omega and love it - it shoots great.... but.... if I were in Colorado - I probably would find a different gun to hunt with... It is not noted for it's ability to shoot conicals, although it will shoot Powerbelts just fine, except I have a mental block against them...

The best gun probably for what you are proposing is a White, except they are very hard to find anymore, the second best gun in my mind would be an old Remington model 700ml, you can still find them around and they will shoot everything. And really the best gun might be a an older Knight of some kind - do not own any Knights but someone like Wolfhound on here is a Knight expert could really fill you in better.

For me the White and the Remington fill the big bill, both have all three ignitions systems can shoot conicals, sabots, and PB's equally well. You can adapt them to be leagal in any state but Idaho.

Good luck in your search - there will be a lot of other opinions and suggestions... I just happened to get here first or second....

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My understanding is a powerbelt is a conical and legal in Colorado. Correct me someone if I am wrong. Also you need to consider maxiball, and some of the other conicals out there as possible projectiles to use.

As for the kind of rifle to purchase, you need to consider what you want the rifle to do. If you could find one, and wanted a true conical shooter, a White would be my choice. The problem with White Rifles are they are getting hard to find because the company is out of business one day, and planning to start again the next day.

Now whether Omega shooters have luck shooting conicals I could not say. I've read posts of them being very good powerbelt shooters. I have a Black Diamond XR that shoots conicals real well. But that does not mean the next Black Diamond will do the same. The Omega might be an excellent choice.

There are some other choices out there, but they are not the modern inline kind of rifle. For instance the Lyman Great Plains Hunter with a 1:32 twist is a known conical shooter. Since Colorado requires no scope as I understand, you would be just as well off with that rifle as a modern inline. Shoot some Pyrodex RS or P and a big Maxiball and it should take out an elk just fine. It will also work on deer back in Iowa.

So come on people that shoot conicals.. what rifle do you suggest for timwlarsen. My vote would be a White, or an Omega if he wanted an inline rifle. A Great Plains Hunter if he wanted a traditional shooter.

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Does not CO require an open ignition system and a pivioting hammer?
I am not to sure about pivoting hammer that to me sounds like a side lock?
As for projectiles I would try working with the Sabor Tooth,when I compared the to the PB in my own private testing the accuracy was the same over all but they penatrated much better. Lee

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What kind of range are you planning on shooting up to? I feel comfortable with 150 yard open sight shots, its needed where i hunt, open plain with some rolling hills and sage brush. i hunt unit 35 in colorado so if you've been in that area, you know how open it is.

No scopes,pellet powder or sabots.

You can shoot any conical you want, if it will shoot with the gun you pick out. I like the 350 grain TC maxi hunters and the 385 grain great plains bullets. Also like powerbelts i just dont have the money to shoot them all of the time. If you're going after elk, a 348 grain powerbelt will do the job. for deer i normally use the 295 grain powerbelt.

As for the muzzleloader, Its like sabotloader said, the omega and encore are not normally known for shooting conicals. You can even give TC a call and they will say its normally a sabot rifle. With so many choices out there, its hard to tell you exactly what you need, you'll have to go to some sporting good stores and handle as many as you can and keep a mental note on which rifle you liked the best and then report back to us for our opinion and if its a good one or if its a bad one.

I shoot a winchester x-150 .50 muzzleloader and its accuracy is excellent and the quality is solid. Either this one or even the CVA optima would be great choices to shoot conical. If you only hunt deer in colorado, a 45 caliber would suit your needs perfectly and i know where you can buy an x-150 Brand new for $160 with ss barrel and camo stock. 160 shipped! If you hunt elk in colorado it must be a .50 or larger so thats the only downfall if you go with a .45 and then want to go for elk.

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During ML season, just about any muzzleloader brand or model is allowed. The exceptions are the Savage 10ML II(or any ML which is designed for use with smokeless powder), which you CAN NOT hunt with during the regular MUZZLELOADER season even if its loaded with black powder.

During ML season, just about any ignition system is allowed, EXCEPT, one can't use the little 25 ACP cartridge and BP. Only 209, percussion cap, or flints allowed.

During ML season, thanks to some modification last year, ANY blackpowder substitute is legal. Just has to be a powder that is designed for use in blackpowder weapons. Of course, blackpowder is A-OK.

Projectiles must be full bore conical less than 2X length or PRB. During RIFLE SEASON, I am told that any projectile which is legal for use in a centerfire, is also legal as asaboted projectile in a muzzleloader.

I would recommend a .50 cal. I'll let you decide which brand and model. Regarding the omega,while there is no guaranty that it will shoot conicals, there is no guaranty that it won't shootthem either. Some reportgood results. If this is your first rifle, I'd be sure to choose the one which you feel would best function for its primary use. If its Colorado during ML season, it needs to shoot conicals. If its Colorado during rifle, it needs to shoot either conicals or sabots well, or shoot them both. A rifle which functions well for Colorado rifle season, of course, functions in Iowa very well.

Good luck with it. I hope you do go to Colorado for some hunting. There is a sense of wildness and openness that is hard to beat. If you are getting burned out on theshotgun drives, I guarantee a muzzleloader and 20,000 acres of BLM will cure you.

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Thank you so much. Sounds like I would have purchased not the best choice. I have been huntingthe flat tops - 10700'with dense spruce,small 200 yd openings. I will see if I can't get out to handle some of the mentioned and clerk recommended, andthen see what you guys think.

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"During ML season, just about any ignition system is allowed, EXCEPT, one can't use the little 25 ACP cartridge and BP. Only 209, percussion cap, or flints allowed. "

Where are you reading this? I know guys who use the 25 ACP conversion primers, and know of no problems using them??

"Does not CO require an open ignition system and a pivioting hammer?"

No, this is not correct, Omegas have a closed / weatherproofignitionand they are legal.

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Colorado

RE: totally lost
 

I have and do hunt CO. during the ML season and I have hunted the flattops for many years.
The Omega will shoot 348 powerbelts just fine and will kill elk but they are not a white which imo is a really great conical shooter. Put in a 460 grain conical over a 1oo grains of T7 and you will take any elk out there.
I believe the powerbelt will take elk very effectively with a good hit. I would be concerned with a shoulder shot tho,not the greatest penetration.
The 460 conical will put them down any place a centerfire rifle will
I seen the results first hand on both and these are my opinions.
THe Omega is a fine rifle for a beginner.
Redclub

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Agree on PB for Shoulder hits on Elk, big bucks, really any big game. We discuss this PB Fragmentation at length in another thread (and I don't want to open it up again, just to inform the people who are not following every day)here:

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1886707&mpage=1&key=&#188670 7

If you want to know what Toby Bridges feels about them, see this:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/feedback.html

and Randy Wakeman:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/powerbelt_bullets.htm

There are a lot better bullets that penetrate.

Chap Gleason Va

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Are powerbelts legal now?

COLORADO

Minimum Rifle Caliber: 40 caliber for deer, pronghorn antelope, black bear, sheep and goat; 50 for elk and moose
Minimum Handgun Caliber: prohibited
Legal Projectiles:lead bullet only
Are Pyrodex Pellets Legal? no
Are Scopes Legal? no
Minimum Barrel Length: ATF standard
Ignition System Restrictions: percussion and flintlock
Are In-line Rifles Legal? yes
Special Muzzleloading License Required? must designate when filing for specific big game
Other Muzzleloader Rules: Only single-barrel muzzleloading rifles are legal for blackpowder hunting in Colorado. For 40- to 50-caliber guns, the bullets must weigh at least 170 grains, and for 50 and larger calibers, bullets must weigh at least 210 grains.
Season Information: 2000 Deer/elk/antelope: available by drawing only Deer/elk: west of I-25 (and unit 140): Sept. 9-17 Plains deer: east of I-25 (except unit 140): Oct. 14-22 Antelope: Oct. 21-29
For More Information: Colorado Wildlife Division 1313 Sherman, Room #718 Denver, CO 80203 Phone (303) 297-1192 http://www.dnr.state.co.us/wildlife

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If greater than .50, bulles must weigh a min. of 210 grains.
From .40caliber to 50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 170 grains.
There has never been any rules about it being lead bullet only. Where are you getting your info? Im reading the manual right now and find nothing about that.

shotshells, primers and flintlock are legal.

Also have found no barrel length limit.

Just looked on the colorado DOW website and there are no rules about it having to be an all lead projectile. Scroll down to page 3 and the new rules are in there.
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/6E977561-C613-466D-BCFC-2CA9C9C91CD9/0/Ch02.pdf

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How many of these Restrictions have been changed since 1997?

Commission Considers Changes to Muzzle-loading Regulations

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A lot of those laws have changed since 1997.

only 13 laws now. You should have the dow send you a new 2007 Colorado big game 2007 book with all the rules and requirements. The only restrictions on bullets is that the bullet length can not exeed twice the diameter of the bullet. And sabots of course are not legal.

Powerbelts are not sabots and are legal.

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Rebel Hog

I can not read - these are the old rules...

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Jon, all powerbelts or Lead Only powerbelts?

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all powerbelts are legal. Im going to give my local dow office a call. I only live 10 miles away from Spanish peaks state wildlife center.


There is no such thing as an all lead bullet rule. Copper jacketed conicals are legal. Only sabots are illegal. Heres also a couple pics in the 2007 rule book.

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209's are expressly allowed, so I take this to mean that other than flint, or percussion cap, 209's are also legal. Seems to me, if everything is legal, they should just say so. For example, "All types of ignition are legal for ML season". I asked this very question on the website. I got no answer and even if I did, I would make sure I carried a copy of the response if it were in favor of LRP, SRP, andpistol primersfor ignition.

The rules are certainlyneither precisenor are theydevoid of ambiguity. As for no one having problems with ACP ignition. I hunted 4 days of the ML season last year and never saw a game warden. I would say if your buddies' ignition has been checked in the field by game wardens during the ML season, then I am most likely "reading too much" into the regs and what "they mean". Have their ACP ignition systems beeninspected and verifiedby game warden(s)?

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Here is another Conical source that looks to be good, someone on here mentioned them, i have an order in to try out for grins.
http://www.blackwidowbullets.com/

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Chap, If he gets the omega, he plans on hunting in colorado and our state does not allow sabots. Thats why we warned him about the conical issue and the omega.

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Yes, that is right, I recall he was from Iowa and then he was going to hunt some in CO. Thanks, I changed my post to conform to this. Chap

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Those were great reads. I only mentioned powerbelt as that was the only conical I was aware of. My best friend and hunting partner worked for hornady several years back as a engineer who developed bullets (though rim-fire). Appears the XTP would be a much better choice. I located a gun shop in Omaha that is suppose to carry whites off of their website. I would also like to look at the X-150. So much goes into a elk hunt, I would be crushed if through all the preparation, the animal runs 3-4 miles (because the bullet sucked)the wrong directionto where you might not get it all out.

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Bingo, if your doing a "hunt of a lifetime", don't takea chance on the bullet. Get something you KNOW will work. I don't think an XTP is legal in CO, but I have never hunted Co. A lot of other guys do however. Glad you enjoyed my post and got educated. I did a complete PB page here:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/powerbelt_page.htm


Chap Gleason Va

RE: totally lost
 

heres a website with the x-150 and the winchester apex, the apex is like the omega but will shoot conicals and has the sealed drop action. Where you pull down at the rear of the trigger guard and the block hiding the cap area now comes into view. Both of these guns are over 8lbs but that helps tame recoil and make for a solid hold on the rifle. If you want something thats weather proof, then the apex would be the way to go. You can see that the black/blue apex is under $200 which is more than affordable. They also have an SS/CAMO Apex for $271, i like the SS barrels due to them not getting rust spots when you hunt in the snow or rain. But thats just a personal thing.
They have the x-150s on here but they are all .45's, in order to get a .50 you'll have to call winchester mling and see what they have, they even stock refurbished apex's and x-150s.
Heres their number: 877-892-7544

Jon

Edit:
Heres a complaint about powerbelts in an omega thats scoped. The yahoos blamed the bullet for accuracy problems when in truth, its the barrels that are mounted on them. They were designed for sabots. Just keep your options open and ask questions about each rifle you've looked at and we'll help you in the direction to go.












2 out of 5 [/align]Not the most accurate?, February 10, 2007
By Drake31 from South Central Minnesota
[/align][/align]


"Last fall a co-worker and myself spent a long Saturday looking for the best down range accuracy from a muzzleloader. We tested various versions of the powerbelts and a number of different sabots from a large spectrum of manufacturers. We ran controled tests at 100 and 200 yards, using both .45 and .50 caliber thompson Omega's. Each different load was tested with a clean barrel for the first round, then 3 more round through a dirty barrel. For accuracy sake we mounted each gun with a Leupold Varmiter scope, something not practical for hunting but necessary for an accuray test. All test were done with 100gr of 777 power, not pellet.

We found that the powerbelts had the worst overall accuracy, holding a 3.5inch group at 100 yards, 5+ at 200 yards. These numbers are still very good and would easily find the average 8 inch vital area of a whitetail. The only area that the powerbelts were the best was in they're extreme easy of loading.

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Frontier Gander, I may be one of those yahoos, but would like to change my ways if you can properlyteach me. How am I to know that an Omega is designed for sabots? If you look at the manual they show conicals and sabots being used for the rifle. Is it be 'cause of the 1:28 twist? Is that statement based on your experience with the rifle? Did you read it somewhere? How do you know it was designed for sabots.
Chap Gleason

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Thats easy. Call TC and ask how well their omegas. encores shoot conicals and you'll tell you that they aer mainly sabot rifles. So far the only way ive seen people shooting conicals with decent accuracy is by cutting off the QLA that TC can not get right.

1:28 twist should be perfect for shooting conicals, my inline and the one before it have 1:28 twists and i get great accuracy from them. Theres something with the qla that tc refuses to fix or look into. IMO, they are screwing themselves by not fixing this problem and hunters in states that can not use sabots are turning away and going with something that will.

Heres part of the add off cabelas website talking about the omega.

The magnum charge capability, up to 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex®, sends slugs thundering downrange. Quick-Load Accurizer Muzzle System on the 28" barrel makes loading easy, and 1-in-28" twist stabilizes sabots for tack-driving accuracy

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Chap,

You are right, TC claims the omega drives tacks with conicals. But when they don't, they don't stand behind them. Ask txhunter58. They tell the person that they are designed for sabots, shoot some shockwaves through them, and them return them to the owner, end of story. If one needs his omega to shoot conicals, and it won't, he is SOL.

As for the BPI barrels, they are designed specifically to shoot full-bore conicals. Save the White, probably nothing else shootsfull bore conicalbetter than a BPI barrel. In fact, a Walmart Buckhornclearance at $59 probably outshoots a $750 pro-hunter when a full-bore conical must be used.

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FG,
Was not aware that the QLA was causing the conical shooting problem. Is that because it is bored out a bit larger at the muzzle and the bullet is still traveling the "groove" but is not being held tight within the barrel? Why wouldn't a sabot perform the same? Are the sabots expanding to still travel the QLA groove? Chap Gleason Va

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I have a theory and it is just that a theory. I suspect that the reason the QLA messes with the conical accuracy is that when the conical reaches the QLA portion of the barrel the gas pushing it can escape around the base of the conical and cause a disturbance that starts to make the bullet unstable. The reason it does not do this with a sabot load is that the sabot expands enough and the petals are opening just slightly and the combination stops the gas from escaping around the bullet/sabot load. Personally I find it hard to believe that T/C cannot machine a QLA concentric with the bore (although apparently some have measured them and claim that they are not machined correctly). I have not shot any conicals in my Omega other than Powerbelts and they shoot quite well: however, the powerbelt also has a plastic seal at the rear which would stop the gas excaping around the bullet just like a sabot if that is what is really causing the problems with solid lead conicals. Some have had decent luck with conicals if they use a felt wad below the bullet and again this "seal" may be the answer to rifles with QLA.

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I have a hard time seeing why tc has so much trouble with their qla while other rifles out there have them and get them right to shoot conicals. Maybe it could also do with the way their rifling is compaired to others but we will never know and i doubt tc will ever figure it out themselves. Or maybe tc bores it slightly to large and the end and then thats what screws it up possibly? I'd be interested to see muzzle measurements of the qla on other tc omegas and encores and see how greatly it varys.

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Your theory makes sense to me. I have no idea if it is true or not, but the fact that a felt wad keeps a conical from going astray makes it logical.
Thanks for explaining this. Chap Gleason

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By the way I just bought some cast lead full bore conicals that have a felt wad glued to the base. Have not shot them yet but am curious as to how they will shoot in my Omega. I also have an NEF Huntsman that I can compare if they do not perform in the Omega. These are 350gr. .50cal "AccuMag" bullets from Hoffman and Wright in Ky. I wonder if the felt wad stays on the bullet or drops as it is leaving the bore. Seems to me if it stayed on it might affect accuracy. They also market a similar constucted bullet using a "REAL" design bullet with the felt wad on the base. The 350gr. one is almost a barrel shape with a big flat nose like Ross Seyfried uses on pistol bullets. I suspect at distances below 100 yards these would be devastating on game. Maybe the Idaho and Colorado guys should consider these?

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Is there a reason for gluing the felt wad to the bottom of the conical?

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Al Marion on this site:
http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/July03/july03.htm

talks about the cast bullets and how they don't mushroom but give superior penetration. He likes the big flat nose bullets also. I have read the article several time and every time I read it, I pick up a bit more understanding on this matter of bullet penetration and Terminal Sectional Density and the like. I think your on to something. He says this at the end of his article:

We never know when we buy or build ammunition exactly how much will be required of each bullet we send down the barrel toward big game. Thus, it is foolish to not use bullets with design characteristics that are up to the toughest assignments. The same design characteristics that restrict expansion also protect against major component separations. So, because toughness goes with the territory in high TSD bullets, they routinely survive violent impact with bone and continue on with their assigned task. With regularity, they deliver enough energy where it matters. And gratefully, in all but the most extreme circumstances, any bullet with that capability is certain to continue helping us by opening a leak on the far side.

The hard cast bullets with large frontal area are what penetrated best in his tests. I don't know much about these. I have seen them in Cabelas. Idon't know anyone that shoots them, but his article made sense to me, but I am certainly no expert.

Chap Gleason Va