Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

This caught me and most others by total surprise... I guess it just shows the power of the loud and persistent...

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=3662

If you are from Idaho e-mail [email protected]and voice your opinions...

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

I was reading that and it looks like the traditional shooters got to the government there. So the Omega's and some of the other disc rifles, Encores, Pro Hunters, etc are all going to be illegal. Would the White even be legal there?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

After reading the reasons, I am not too surprised. Idaho would like to continue issuing the same number licenses while reducing the harvest. The only other option is to reduce the number of licenses.I notice that states where harvest objectives are not met year to year, they have much more liberal muzzleloading definitions.

Am I right ininterpreting that only sidelocks will be allowed?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

cayugad

White? nope - no pivoting hammer...

but there might be a loop hole not that I need it because of the GM LGH barrel that I have..... I just need to re-learn, actualy learn well how to shoot conicals... 10/1,000 was put in to oust PowerBelts and that company is located in Nampa, Idaho.

I believe the traditionals did have the loudest voice and were able to swing this but that is still not the real problem - the real problem goes back to the belief that inlines are comparable to centerfires. It is my belief there is still a pretty big gap between my best inline and my Tikka 300 Win Mag. I can harvest a lot more animals more consistently with that than I will ever be able to get with a ML.

Looks like I am going to have to loacate some 460 NE's and figure out how to shoot them flat....sure flat...

What I need to do is figure out how to get the guns like the Omega - Encore - Apex - Kodiac - Optima to shoot #11 caps... there are exposed pivoting hammers, but require 209 ignition which is also against, and has been, Idaho ML rules. - Scopes also have been and continue to be against the rules.

If somebody made this conversion they might pick up a few bucks in all of the northwestern states...

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Pglasgow

I believe that is the intent... the only problem is that my sidelock Hawken with the GM barrel is really just as good shooter as the inlines... The big difference is going to come in the velocityof the projectile that I can shoot and of course the trajectory...

The unfortunate part is it will not reduce the number of near kills, but bloody animals, that will now occur at ranges people should not be shooting.

For me the worst part is there was never an advisory to the general public, at least a well advertised notice, that this was going to happen in Idaho - Government @ work...

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

I can not understand why they went back 20 years for blackpowder. And did away with let off for bows. Would a kahnke rifle be legal ? I think it would along with a tc scout.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Those rules must have been written by a dedicated team of idiots. Within10/1000ths of WHAT? Define bore diameter (is that groove to groove or land to land... is a .50 caliber consider .500 even though it's .502 or .498... will the agents carry calipers/micrometers?) Define exposed, pivoting hammer? Exposed on all sides, exposed in the middle, exposed on top... can it be attached to the rifle?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

A IDGF game officer told me that the new inlines could shoot 200 yds.And they felt that too many mature bucks were being taken. My reply was that out of 100 muzzleloders that only 2 or 3 could kill a deer at 200 yds with open sights. I asked him If he had ever shot open sights past 100 yds. He had no reply.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

From what I read the ignition cap has to be exposed so that would eliminate the omega, encore and so and so on. What an a$$ backwards
move.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

They sure can, but just how many (hunters) can actualy shoot that far? Where's this IDGF officer's proof that too many bucks are taken? Much ado about nothing. Worrying about what the select few can do at 200yds as opposed to the VAST MAJORITY who shoots under 100 yds. Why don't they go find something else to do and not waste taxpayer money?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Idaho did have a survey online awhile back and it was tilted to favor
the trads' basically saying do you want to hunt with a trad.
or do you want to wait several years to hunt (less tags).
I agree its backwards but once its changed it will be hard to bring back.
Redclub

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Cabella's rolling block used to be available in #11. The T/C scout is #11 primed and you can sometimes find one. Kahnke has an exposed hammer and primer but I don't know what primer they use. Marksbury guns had an exposed hammer and primer also but I don't know the primer and I know they are out of buisiness.

Of course this may all be moot. If they specify the actionas needing to be a sidelocknone of these will work but then neither would an Underhammer.

I tell you what I find interesting. Idaho already had some of the most restrictive regs and has now made them more restrictive. They had already restricted guns to open sights only and changing things to sidelock only will not make any real difference in the kill rates. The open sights made both inlines and sidelocks equal in the range category. Limiting guns to percussion cap or flint already reduced the ignition reliability of the guns.

It sounds like the extremists in Idaho pushed this through. There's a guy on a few other forums from Idaho who had been hinting that change was in the works for a few months. Guess this is what he meant.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Thisnew projectwill ultimately give you hours of enjoyment, I suspect, and also hope.

Not hardly, i think. It is to allow PRB at .490, .530, .570 etc. I would bet the PB's are still allowed and that they are greater than .490 in Diameter.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Pglasgow

Well if powerbelts are still legal - I did not do the math so you and your math mind are probably correct, if so I really am confused in what the actually accomplished, Other than get rid of semi modern inlines & sabots- the modern inlines were never legal anyway.

If powerbelts or equivalent are still legal - I really do not see the point... A powerbelt in my Hawken with the Green Mountain barrel will do just about any thing my non-scoped Remingtons, White,or A&H will do at the same ranges. The projectile will not be as efficient as Noslers/shockwaves and etc, but none-the-less the target of this was to move inlines out...

Oh well! Idaho and politics are like that - I wonder what state will be next - you know Idaho is a TREND setter....

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Well I can see this happening in a lot of States where thehard core Traditional shooters are putting pressure on government officials to bring back "their" idea of a primitive muzzleloader season.

Actually many of the inline rifles did bring a lot of this on themselves, with new designs and such making them almost water proof. And their ability to shoot sabots with some impressive accuracy. To make matters worse they make claims of outstanding accuracy. Then on TV, top paid celebrity hunters are shooting 200+ yards making impressive kills with their sabots and 150 grains of powder. Feed all of this hype to people running fish and game, and to law makers that would not know a muzzle loader if it shot them in the you know where, and they are bound to make some stupid decisions.

Wisconsin allows anything you want to hunt with as long as it loads from the muzzle. They do not allow scopes. That single thing, the banning of scopes, while maybe not fair to the vision impaired (and I understand that) does level the playing field for most all rifles and hunters. As much as I shoot, there is no rifle with out a scope, better then any other one, for long range accuracy. The best open sighted rifle I own is a traditional rifle in .58 caliber with a GMB on it. I throw a 110 grains of Goex 2f powder and a 284 grain roundball. That is the kind of rifle I would be getting, if I lived in Idaho.

I do think that Idaho, if claiming they were concerned about wounded and injured animals from the people shooting modern muzzleloaders as they say, "ain't seen nothing yet." You will see an influx of people getting traditional rifles, loading conicals and round ball, still taking shots they are not skilled enough to make, or ballistically should not be making. All you will see is a State, ending up with bullet ridden animals all over the place. Another thing you will see in the State is many more opportunities for the local people to hunt with muzzleloaders as the non residentout of state hunters, now being unable to hunt with modern muzzleloaders, will instead book hunts for more friendly States you might say. Guides, can say good by to some nice fat fees, restaurants, motels, gas stations, etc can also close up early during muzzleloader season. Believe me, this will impact some local economies.

Traditional hunters are forming up into political voting groups and making their voice heard. If people with modern inline rifles want to do preserve their right to hunt with muzzleloaders they might very well have to do the same and not sit back and expect others to do the work for them.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Mike, I don't know for a fact that PB's are greater than .490. I just figure that they are between .495 and .500. If I owned Powerbelt company, I would see to it that there are some Idaho legal powerbelts for Idaho residents. I'd package them ".495! Legal for Idaho!"

The PB's are no where close, in equivalent weights, to saboted projectiles when it comes to resistance to wind deflection. This will drastically reduce the range of responsible, concientious hunters. Those wanting long range accuracy in less than pristine conditions will have to go with the heavier 400+ conicals and deal with elevation trajectory. Elevation is easier to deal with than windage.

As far as TREND's,that may be the case. I've considered this already in Colorado. I'm done collecting inlines, provideI find myself satisfied 6 mo. from now with what I own. It's gonna be traditionals next. INEED :eek:a flinter in 58 cal and maybe a caplock in .58or .54for shooting roundball, and Oh, don't I need some extra fast twist barrels for conicals?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

My brother was telling me that ML season in used to be throughout the whole month of September, basically, concurrent with bow. At that time I suspect that it was a traditional hunt without scopes and the like. This gave ML hunters access to elk during the peak of rut in the latter half of september. Then the rules were changed, particular the season dates, I suspect to accommodate inline hunters. The idea, let them use inlines and scopes and sabots but only give them a week prior to the rut.

I am sure alot of traditional hunters were outraged by that trend. Now they have taken the scopes and sabots away and we still get the same season a week before the rut really begins. Personally, to get the last two weeks of september, I would agree to go with flinters and roundball.

I don't really think this is a story of inliners and traditionalists. This is more of story of intense demand for hunting opportunity in the West for limited resources of game. It is the Game Department's job to maximize opportunity (# of licenses) to participate in hunting while harvesting a sustainable population. We have to roll with the punches when rules change, and keep smiling. We are so fortunate to live in a country where the government is actually actively involved in encouraging gun ownership and outdoor hunting sports.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

i think there should be 2 muzzleloading season, ones for traditional's, roundball,conicals, cap lock, flintlock exe. open sights, give these guys thebetter part of the season and then have later season for the inline guys who want to use sabots,pellets,scopes exe. Any of us who have hunted with flintlock or sidelock know the guys with the inlines have a big upper hand. And there is a big difference when you are carrying a flintlock,caplock VS inline.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

I assume you have seperate muzzleloading season by itself. Can you use the in-lines during gun season? Any limitations on in-lines during gun season? ie scopes sabots etc? Just curious what % of hunters out here did this affect?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

How about ONE season and hunt with what you wish? Wouldn't PBs be excluded by the all-lead requirement?

In any case, their motivation has more to do with revenue than any right thinking or concern for any wildlife population.

Maybe next they'll specify required twist rates, patch material, do a "what's in your heart" test, and check penis length.


http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/SportRiflePGBlackStock.JPG Would look great in some good wood - black plastic looks pretty bad IMHO.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

This is even a little more restrictive than Colorado MZ regulations. We can use in-lines and 209 primers; but no sabots, pellets, or scopes. In a way, though, I can see their point - particularly if they are letting the MZ hunters go afield during the peak of the elk rut. Bull elk are pretty vulnerable then, and primitive weapons restriction kind of levels out the playing field.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Roskoe

Nope our ML seasons are in December - spikes only & whitetail does only... Southern Idaho does have some other hunts though...

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

In that case, I'd organize a march on the state capital :) Seriously, if the seasons are that late, then it's a lame excuse for the restrictions.

Back in the late 90's, the Colorado Wildlife Commission banned all in-line guns. They were influenced by a group called the Colorado State Muzzleloading Association -136members who engage in rendezvous and mountain man type activites - and enacted a ban that affected an estimated 7,000 hunters who owned in-line weapons. It caused such an uproar in the hunting community that a petition demanding total recall of the entire wildlife commission was threatened. The ban was reversed the following year.

It seems like every year there is a little tweak to the "definition of a muzzleloading rifle" section of the regs. No smokeless powder. No red dot scopes. Interesting part of all this is that the game wardens, in the "field input" phase of the regulatory process, supported allowing all the modern improvements - reasoning that it would cut down on wounded game and allow more humane harvests.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Roskoe

I am still looking for answers but let me give you some history. Idaho has two ML seasons... one is called Muzzleloader Only season and the other is called Traditonal Muzzleloader Season.

In the past during MuzzleloaderSeason -> inlines were acceptable, no scopes, no 209's, exposed ignition... Then during Traditional season basically Hawkens, loose powder, PRB or conical non jacket, no sabots, no scopes...

If these new rules apply only to the Traditional Season it really is not big deal. During Traditional they will now gain the use of Powerbelts..

If the rule applys across both seasons it is a very big deal, or if there is only the one season Traditional it will be a big deal. You know I think economically it will have a bigger impact than some think.

I just can not find the information and our regulations are not printed until April.

Another interesting fact our Fish & Game Super is retiring, there is an applicant from Alaska, one from Idaho, and one from Colorado - be interesting whom they choose...

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

That would be anyof therifle seasons in Colorado.

I would figure that, without discussion, all the plated PB's would be illegal. But they also make all-lead ones. I suspect that execs at PB are going discuss this over dinner with the Wildlife Officials. I suspect they will argue that the copper functions only as a lubricant and not as a jacket in an effort to get them to take a position favorable to use of plated powerbelts.

Maximizing revenue necessarily requires offering more opportunity to participate in hunting simply because, in many western states, the complete budget is financed by hunters licenses. They don't really care if anyone person gets his animal. In fact, in the West,they are banking on the failure of many in so that the harvest goal won't be exceeded. This particular move is intended to maintain revenue even while the harvest is decreased. Of course they don't feel sorry for the harvested animals, but maximizing revenue does involve ensuring quality animals are available and are being replenished in order to maintain interest in hunt participation.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Something tells me, since the regulations are new, that they apply to Muzzleloader Season, not Traditional Season. How many seasons can you hunt? Just one? Must you draw for tags?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Pglasgow

You could hunt them both if they were available in your area, which they are not here - the traditional hunts are mostly in the southern part of the state and the ML only hunts are up here...

You purchase a hunting license and tags as residents -one elk tag/one deer tag -> then if you want to hunt the ML hunts you purchase a ML stamp... if you do notfill your tags during the regular season then you can use them in the ML season... There are also some controlled hunts you can apply for but you use the same tags basically

I am aftaid that is going to apply across the board - I have e-mailed a commissioner and asked some questions - still waiting for a response - probably mid week next week....

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

I have to admit, Mike, their excuses seem pretty lame. You are fortunate in Idaho to be able to use unfilled tags from the regular season for late season hunts.It would seem thatlatehuntswere intended to be more restrictive than rifle so as to limit take and more about increasing revenues than meeting or filling harvest objectives. Is there a traditional hunt before the regular season there? If so, must one choose between the traditional and regular rifle season?

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

I f the IFG is worried about over harvest why don't they shorten the season? This is typical of IFG they don't think there is a problem until it is too late, Just look at what they did with the kokanee in cda lake. If you read there press release it talks about mule deer, In unit 4 & 7 in the Panhandle we have very few mule deer. It sounds like their consern was in the southern part of the state. It is almost like they want you to hunt in Idaho but not kill anything.

RE: Idaho - Has changed ML rules
 

Reminds me of the fellow in Minnesota who said fishing is just barely legal if you don't use any bait.

So now the Traditional shooters have it about all their way by the new rules. :eek:Now I ask who do they turn to when the tree huggers march on the state capital and demand the Traditional ML season is stoped as it is cruel.
Seems to me that all hunters should stop the bickering about inlines, Traditional, compound, recurve and just keep hunting alive an well in all the states.

:)Al