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weather test on substitute powders
DAY ONE - [/b]Saturday, January 06, 2007[/b][/b]
Rifle #1 CVA Staghorn Magnum .50 caliber 100 grains Pyrodex RS 300 grain Hornady .452 XTP Winchester primer Outside temperature 35º Humidity 81% 8:30 am – 5:10 pm Snowing, overcast, windy Back room temperature 43º Cool, dry, clean Rifle #2 Knight Disc .50 caliber 100 grains Triple Se7en 2f 250 grain Shockwave Remington Kleenbore Primers Outside temperature 35º 8:30 am – 5:10 pm Snowing, overcast, windy Wood shop Building Temperature 35º Day Two - [/b]Sunday, January 07, 2007[/b][/b] [/b] Rifles are the same - Outside temperatures 34º Humidity 80% 8:40 am - 5:15 pm snowing lightly, no wind Back wood room 43º Wood shop building 33º Cold and damp Day Three - [/b]Monday, January 08, 2007[/b][/b] [/b] Rifles are the same - Outside temperature 9º Humidity 85% Clear & cold 7:00 am – 5:30 pm Back room 38º Wood Working Shop 12º COLD![/i] [/i] Day Four - [/b]Tuesday, January 09, 2007[/b][/b] Rifles are the same - outside temperature went from 8º to 18º during the day night time temperatures are said to be in the single digits Humidity 81% Snowing, windy, cold Back room temperatures 38º Wood working shop 14º * tomorrow morning is the shooting [/b] Day Five - [/b]Wednesday, January 10, 2007[/b][/b] 1:00 pm 22ºs slight wind from the north overcast cold humidity 50% The CVA Staghorn was moved onto the front porch out in the elements in the day time and then at dark moved to the back room where wood is stored in the house. This back wood room is dry, but can get rather cold at night. I then with the Knight Rifle also moved it from the porch to the wood working building which prior to, I had dried out with a space heater and then tried not to track any snow into it. Although that building always feels cold to me. Today, I took both rifles out and shot them. I started with the CVA Staghorn Magnum which has a RED DOT 1X scope on it. The new primer was put in the rifle and this time it fired perfect so it seemed although the shot hit a little higher then I thought it should have. I then swabbed between shots and shot off six more.  The Knight Disc has been moved from the porch to the wood working shop. I figured this rifle would act up if any of them did. I put a new Winchester 209 primer in it and shot. It hit actually just to the right of the main group. It fired fine. Why the change from the last time. The only things different were the powder and the fact that I used a space heater and dried the building out a little.  I fired a five shot group with the Knight Disc and was more then happy with the results. So the question is, was the humidity that much different with this test, or was the fact of drying out the shop the factor, or the powder. What ever it was, this time the rifles shot fine. The CVA was never brought into the house other then the back wood room. The time before they were brought in to a warm room. So maybe the original thought of condensation was the thing that caused all of this. After that I broke out some other rifles and tested some different powders. Then spent the rest of the afternoon cleaning rifles.... |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
cayugad
Again thank you Dave! This is certainly more positive than the previous tests. And it is certainly more along the lines I would have expected and what I have experianced... The Remington spent the day in the house today. It will be out on the deck Thursday and Saturday is suppose to be shooting day. I fully expect simular results to you latest test. mike |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
Mike -
As we mentioned before, this was a learning thing for all of us. Also the changing to the different powders surprised me. I really thought that Triple Se7en would fail to fire. It actually fired like a nice spring day. I never actually brought the Staghorn into the house. The wood storage room is off the family room. Itis a 14X16 room I fill with firewood for the stove. That way I do not have to wander outside in the cold to get wood for the stove. And the wood stays nice and dry and snow free. There is no heat in that room and it stays around 40ºs. So many days the rifle only climbed perhaps 10 degrees or more and at a very slow rate. Hence, lack of condensation in the barrel. The Wood Shop again, not heated, but I ran my Salamander heater in there for about eight hours and took the humidity out of the room. Then I was careful not to drag snow in, so I think that helped the Knight Disc stay away from the humidity. I was a little surprised the rifles shot as well as they did. Especially since they were, first shot / clean barrels. I learned a lot though doing this. I think that next year, I might just do the wood room option and not unload the rifle at all. That way when the monster buck comes out and the rifle fails to fire I have a reason to get mad.:D |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
cayugad
As we mentioned before, this was a learning thing for all of us. Also the changing to the different powders surprised me. I really thought that Triple Se7en would fail to fire. It actually fired like a nice spring day. thanks |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
Dave, this is good stuff. I have thought the dramatic temperature change from outside to inside my home then back out was the major cause of failed charges; basically condensation. I wonder if the rifle was stored indoors, muzzle down, if there would be significant difference in the moisture from condensation reaching the powder? Also, is there a product opportunity here? Maybe a moisture collecting rod which could be inserted down the barrel and left until the gun is used again?
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RE: weather test on substitute powders
In these tests, the rifle was never brought into the warm part of the house. I did that on the last test with terrible results. Misfires, and poor accuracy. I brought the rifle into the wood room which is hardly warmer then outside at times....
If you do store the rifle, store them muzzle end down on a piece of cotton cloth or paper towel. Then if any moisture does form, it will move away from the powder charge out the barrel. |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
yeoman
I have for years done what Cayugad is now testing, except that I do bring my gun inside the house, in fact it is in now. The concept that I am working with is the gun does go from the warm house to the cold truck, then as we drive to the hunting spot the gun is warmed slowly in the cab of the truck. It does not get hot but it is warmed. So it has gone from warm to cold then for ashort period of time then rewarmed. Then from the warm truck to the cold field for a day of hunting. At the end of the day the cold gun is placed in the cold truck. Cold as the outside air as it to has been sitting all day and then the drive home warms the gun slowly. From the truck it comes in the house and standsin the corner of the Rec-room (butt down) until the next day. Then repeat the process the next day... In addition it might standa full week in the house between trips - sometimes I gotta work... I am running the same experiment here now trying to duplicate the hunting routine. For 3 days it went from the house directly to the outside deck - spent all day on the deck in what ever weather came... then in the evening I would go get it and bring to the unheated garage for at least an hour (about the same time period spend in the truck for the drive home)and sometimes a little longer - then back into the house for the night. It spent all dayTues-Wed-Thursday in the house, had to work, and it will be out Friday - Saturday (really suppose to be nasty weather) and shooting is scheduled for Sunday. The expirement beganSaturday the 6th... You can see the firstfew postsat: http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1911153 And I am 99% sure you will see a successful post this Sunday evening... I hope |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
Sabotloader, I've seen your post and await the outcome. I was hoping you were going to say you were doing the experiment, muzzle down. There has to be fairly substantial condensation going on, cause when I pull my rounds to start over with fresh ingredients (sidelock), I can tip the gun muzzle down to pour out the powder charge (RS)and almost nothing comes out. I have to take the ramrod with ball puller attachment and run it down the barrel to break up the powder, and do it several times, to get most of it out. And that's after just 24-48 hours! Butt down. It's no surprise to me shots can be way low on an old charge. Knowing what I know now, I feel unethical taking taking a gun out and back in and back out to hunt deer after 48 hours, at least whenstored butt down.
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RE: weather test on substitute powders
Cayugad - thanks for another thought provoking test. Do you really feel as though the substitute powders are less prone to ignition difficulties than real black powder, or did the less extreme temperature variations and humidity factors help the substitute powders go "bang"? I know it is hard to exactly duplicate conditions from test to test . . . .
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RE: weather test on substitute powders
I blame the warmer weather, the lower humidity, the fact I dried out the wood shop with a heater, and never brought anything into a warm house. But the results did give me a little hope of future hunting methods with loads left over..
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RE: weather test on substitute powders
yeoman
Nope butt is down.... I really do not think I am getting the consensation problem. This the same thing I do during hunting season also. and knock on wood I have never had a problem..... NOTICE in the senerio - the gun never comes from cold to warm - there is always a slow warming in between - then to the house.... Any time you compact T7 in the gun - I have never been able to pour it out.... even when I remove the BP, I'll get a little bit out but the majority of it is still compactacted.... This did worry me some once so I removed the BP and captured the powder as it came out when I pushed the sabot on through... I was dry and fine just poured it back into my range bottle of T7. My barrel is relativly free of any oils, as free as I can get them with a patch,when I am loaded so I have never concerned myself with oils running down either. Has worked like a champ during hunting season... the load that I shot my little buck this year was @ 170+ yard was over a week old in and out of the field - truck & house.... I guess I'll find out Sunday for sure... anyway I hoping I get to shoot Sunday - Monday is a holiday so it might be Monday. |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
"when I am loaded so I have never concerned myself with oils running down"
Me neither Mike. :D |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
I guess what I would really like to know, in a fairly scientific "apples to apples" test under extremes of temperature and humidity; is how reliableignition would be comparing black powder, various substitutes, and various pellets. My guess would be that black powder would be the most affected by condensation, and that the pellets would be the least affected. Sort of the opposite of how easily the propellants ignite when spark is marginal.
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RE: weather test on substitute powders
Roskoe
Think about this cause i have know idea what it proved or what it means... The other day sitting around thinking I thought I would try an experiment... question? I you were to fill a small container with hat tap water... then drop a small amount of powder into the water - what do think might happen? Let it sit inth water for 48 hours, what would happen? I can not tell you about anything other than T7. But what I expected was the the granuals to swell up and desinegrate into a black mud. It did not happen. I have noticed as I poured T7 in the toilet, dumping a load, forgetting to flush and come later the powder had collected itself into a small pile at the bottom on the pocelain. You could still see the individual graunuals. Well same thing happened with hot water and a teaspoon of powder. It sat in the container for 48 hours and inverted cone and all the time i could see the individual granuals... the water never blacken. I honestly believe if I had the time to allow the water to evaporate and the powder to dry everything would have been just fine. I know you can dry BP but I did not think you could dry subs... Again I have know idea what I might have proved - if I did a prove anything - I just do not think T7 is as fragile as some people think it might be. My shooting date has been moved to Monday - it ought to be interesting the gun went outside from the house with the outside temp -2 and has been outside all day. It will come back in around 4, well back into the garage, then the house forovernight... will it shoot and will shoot well on Monday? - only time will tell. I am still believing it will. |
RE: weather test on substitute powders
Looking forward to hearing about the results of your testing. I think there is something worthwhile to be learned here . . . .
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RE: weather test on substitute powders
Thanks Dave, for sharing all your tests info with us!
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